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Re:Boeing delays 737 MAX software fix delivery by throwanem on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @01:52PM (#19556783)
"Fly-by-wire" is a colloquialism for indirect, software-mediated control of an aircraft's control surfaces, whether to reduce pilot workload in some flight regimes, as with the 737 MAX 8, or to completely manage the aircraft's aerodynamics based on expressions of pilot intent made via cockpit control inputs, as with the last several generations of Airbus aircraft.

Recent 737 models, including the MAX 8, make partial use of fly-by-wire systems, such as the MCAS that's elicited so many hot takes recently. Airbus aircraft, by comparison, make heavy use of fly-by-wire systems, and have for years. In terms of functionality, it's perhaps the single largest difference between their product line and Boeing's.

On the other hand, the widebody 777 is the first Boeing product to go fully fly-by-wire, completely separating the pilots' control inputs from the aircraft's control surfaces in the way that all modern Airbus aircraft do.

If fly-by-wire is the problem - if, as you seem to suspect, these systems exist to compensate for the inherent flaws of aircraft designs which otherwise would not be able to stay safely in the sky - then these Airbus models, and the 777, should have pretty rough safety records, shouldn't they? We should expect to see these other aircraft fail due to problems of the same sort as affected the 737 MAX 8's MCAS, right?

Luckily, we don't actually need to expect anything in this case, because we have good information on the frequency, severity, and causes of airliner accidents more or less all over the world. Indeed, that information is so good, and so available, that it's a major scandal, and a fecund ground for conspiracy theories, in the rare case where it's not available, as with Malaysia Airlines flight 370.

Thanks to that information, we know that the safest airliner on the planet, by flying hours, is the Airbus A340, which has not yet had a fatal accident. Second is the Boeing 777, which has seen only 541 fatalities in its almost quarter century of revenue service - and that's counting the 298 souls aboard MH 17, shot down five years ago over Ukraine.

Both of these aircraft are about 25 years old. Both have full fly-by-wire control systems. And both are, by any measure, among the safest commercial airliners in the world. If fly-by-wire were intended to cover up for the deficiencies in basic aerodynamic design you seem to lump into the term "instability", is this the safety record you'd expect to see?

Re:Boeing delays 737 MAX software fix delivery by pedrocr on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:05PM (#19556932)
You're having a completely different discussion unrelated to what I wrote. Fly-by-wire doesn't imply an inherently unstable airframe.
Re:Boeing delays 737 MAX software fix delivery by throwanem on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:31PM (#19557168)
What do you mean by “inherently unstable” here? We’re talking about an automatic trim system, in the case of the MAX 8; you seem to be reasoning from that to an airframe like that of the F-16 or B-2, that’s effectively unmanageable without its FBW, and I don’t understand how you’re getting there.
Re:Boeing delays 737 MAX software fix delivery by pedrocr on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @02:41PM (#19557270)
If you read my post I was only explaining how the OP didn't actually know the things he was claiming. We just don't know how much inherent instability there is in the airframe that then needs to be fixed by fly-by-wire. It's surely not F-16 level but there is clearly a flight regime where things get hairy. The point is we don't know. The OP was claiming everything was fine on the instability issue without knowing how much there is and how much actually exists in common airliner designs.
Re:Boeing delays 737 MAX software fix delivery by cmurf on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @05:26PM (#19558744)
Based on my reading of FAR 25, specifically 25.143 - 25.207, I can't agree it's possible for a transport category airplane to be unstable. So I guess I don't know what you mean by "inherent instability".

I also am unconvinced computers can mediate an airplanes aerodynamic design in order to achieve certification under this part, because again by my reading the expectation is that we (pilots and the flying public) can expect static and dynamic stability dynamic stability, laterally and longitudinally. Can computer control improve these behaviors? Sure. Can computer control make them more linear or consistent or docile or predictable? All of those things. But is it acceptable to have negative static stability, naturally occurring by design, in transport category aircraft moderated by computer? I don't think that's allowed but then I'm not deep diving these regulations either. What happens if all computer control goes down? You can't fall back on the natural static and dynamic stability of the airplane, because it doesn't exhibit those characteristics? That seems bad and not consistent with FAR 25.

However, if any such computer safeguards can be disabled (either by the computer itself becoming confused and removing those safeguards; or by pilots disabling them explicitly), I expect the pilot to be trained as part of the type certification requirements, how the airplane behaves when the safeguards are enabled and disabled.

I'm quite sure Boeing knows the answer to these questions. I suspect the FAA knows the answer to these questions. And when you say "we don't know" I think you mean HNer's engaged in discussion, who maybe aren't even aware that quite a lot of things are mandatory for obtaining transport category aircraft airworthiness certification.

Re:Boeing delays 737 MAX software fix delivery by pedrocr on Tuesday April 02, 2019 @06:53PM (#19559358)
> I'm quite sure Boeing knows the answer to these questions. I suspect the FAA knows the answer to these questions. And when you say "we don't know" I think you mean HNer's engaged in discussion, who maybe aren't even aware that quite a lot of things are mandatory for obtaining transport category aircraft airworthiness certification.

I mean that the general public doesn't know that indeed. And thanks for the references, I'll look them up. The original post I replied to was specifically saying that what you are now describing is not allowed (these types of planes being unstable) should be acceptable.