Except work reliably without me having to waste time fiddling around with drivers and settings.

A few weeks ago, I installed Ubuntu 18.04, the latest LTS version, on my desktop. So, this isn't some nerdy Arch or Gentoo setup, it is basically the most mainstream GNU/Linux-based OS you could possibly imagine. I couldn't even log in because the Nouveau driver would crash every time I tried. (Maybe they've never tested it on a 4K display? Or with my specific card? Who knows.)

Also, Ctrl+Alt+FN to go to a TTY did not work, so I couldn't even fix it by installing the proprietary Nvidia drivers from there.

I was able to log in by changing to a non-default desktop environment, or maybe login/display manager? I don't remember the details. Anyway, it "worked", with slideshow-tier FPS, until I installed the proprietary drivers and everything was fine.

This isn't a fluke -- it is consistent with almost 15 years of experiences trying to use GNU/Linux on the desktop.

Something like this has simply never happened to me when using an Apple product.

For desktop especially, I've had close to zero problems over most of that time, and especially recently, though I admit that I've always used the proprietary Nvidia drivers.

My desktops have always been generic, build your own affairs, with relatively slower/older graphics cards up until the past five years, where I've been getting one generation back from the high end Nvidia cards.

There's no question that the hardware integration for OSX is better. But, for desktop at least, in my experience, Linux has been pretty close for quite a while, though I know my experience has been better than what others have reported.

These days having to fiddle with drivers on Linux is a rarer and rarer occasion. I haven't had to worry about this ever since I ditched my NVIDIA card a couple of years ago.

You need to do some research when buying hardware that is compatible with Linux -- this is why everyone in this thread recommends Lenovo X1. It's more expensive than other laptops, but it is really compatible Linux hardware.

Also it takes some time to get driver support into Linux kernel, so for average hardware that doesn't specifically supports Linux, I'd expect about 6 months to a year after hardware release; also for a jump in video quality -- it takes Xorg some time to get proper video support, though I saw Lenovo Yoga machines working with 4K just fine a few years ago. (Disclaimer Lenovo Yoga is not as well supported in linux as Lenovo X1 carbon)

Nvidia is notoriously hostile to linux, which made it a no-go for me and I'm sticking to either AMD or Intel for my video cards, where everything works flawlessly.

I believe the point the parent is making that Apple hardware is now bad enough that having Linux on well supported hardware, would require less fiddling and would provide better user experience.

Exactly. Business-class machines will generally do you just fine.

My experience: most of the Lenovo T, X, and P laptops, modulo some of the tablet/Yoga features, work out of the box. I had a HP Spectre x360 13" before a Lenovo (took it back for other reasons, didn't like the keyboard) in early 2018 and it worked out of the box--and with a 4K display besides. I've used Dell's XPS 13 and XPS 15, and they worked out of the box, too.

I realized last week that I at this point can safely assume that stuff is gonna just work with my machines. I plugged in a Lenovo Thunderbolt 3 dock with two monitors, headphones, Ethernet, and a bunch of USB devices and I didn't even stop to think first whether or not that it'd break. It didn't. It is predictably acceptable, today, in 2019.

It's emphatically not perfect. I have complaints. But the showstoppers are gone, if you buy mainstream gear.

NVidia 1070 Ti

> You need to do some research when buying hardware that is compatible with Linux

This backs up my point -- I don't have to waste time researching anything with macOS.

> Nvidia is notoriously hostile to linux

That may be true, but as a user, I don't care why macOS works better, or whether it's fair. I just care that it does.

> I'm sticking to either AMD or Intel for my video cards, where everything works flawlessly.

Not an option if you need CUDA support.

> I believe the point the parent is making that Apple hardware is now bad enough that having Linux on well supported hardware, would require less fiddling

Researching what hardware is supported counts as fiddling.

You are comparing apples and oranges by complaining that Linux didn’t work on a laptop where it didn’t come preinstalled, whereas OSX worked on one where it did. If you tried to install OSX on the laptop you installed Linux on instead it would almost certainly fail, and if itnworked it would be because of orders of magnitude more research needed to build a hackintosh.

In a comparison with Windows Linux might fail the “install on a random laptop and have it working” test, but certainly not against OSX.

But even now, desktop Linux is constantly broken. I just recently spent an hour getting wifi drivers to work again, and switched back because I remembered just how frustrating it is to have everything feel like it’s “third world” computing.

I ask because, in the context of this thread, everything works on the Lenovo laptops that have been mentioned. I've got two (a work and a home one, one with a discrete GPU and one without) and I dropped Fedora on them and it just worked. I keep my Macs for stuff I can't do (as mentioned elsewhere, Logic Pro and the occasional iOS build), but I've been running FC28 and then FC29 as a baseline OS for a year now with no trouble. Probably my only complaint is that the IR camera is higher in the load list than the visible-light camera so I have to remember to select the correct one for teleconferences, but if that's the biggest issue I've got with it...man, that's a pretty good place, for me.

There is definitely janky hardware out there. Would never say otherwise. But most of the time, business hardware from the big manufacturers, especially ones that will sell you a Linux laptop, will set-and-forget.

I have a Mac laptop because: 1) the battery life is outstanding, this is OS and hardware, 2) it just works from the standpoint of roaming between networks and connecting periferals (all be it through limited port options), 3) the experience is generally one of it just works with zero thought.

Now I won’t lie, I’ve considered Lenovo, it’s definitely on my list of what I would choose to replace my Mac laptop with, but I have plenty of experience with Windows, don’t like it. I have plenty of experience with Linux, don’t want to deal with issues when I’m disconnected and remote. So while Apple has hit a stumbling block here, for me it’s still the best experience that I’ve had using a computer.

Maybe to some people that makes sense, but to me that's the equivalent of uninstalling a version of .NET in Windows and then being greeted with a command line version of Windows on your next reboot.

It's been a long time since I used apt, but you were almost certainly warned.

Consider using ASDF for userland Python version management in the future on both MacOS and Linux.

Choices imply the ability to make a bad one. And it's a fairly recoverable one in your case, so I gotta say the criticism feels weak.

Sure you are.

It's a shame that hardware manufacturers with closed, low quality, drivers taint the image of an excellent OS for power users. However, being power users and all, the extra step of using only good hardware is not too much to ask.