News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by habnds on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:19PM (#19536792)
> Sovereigns, who sometimes call themselves “freemen” or “state citizens,” have no foundational document, but broadly they subscribe to an alternate version of American history. The tale can vary from sovereign to sovereign, but it goes roughly like this: At some point, a corporation secretly usurped the United States government, then went bankrupt and sought aid from international bankers. As collateral, the corporation offered the financiers … us. As sovereigns tell it, your birth certificate and Social Security card are not benign documents, but contracts that enslave you.
Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by volak on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:44PM (#19536951)
The summary is slightly inadequate. There wasn't a corporation that usurped the government - the government made corporations of everyone

Basically it goes like this -

* SSN Act (created after the market crash) was created not only to provide faux "retirement" accounts but also "incorporate" every citizen of the country as a company upon birth.

* New baby John Smith instantiates company JOHN SMITH with account 123-45-6789

* ALL banking and financials go through your company account JOHN SMITH (check your checks, statements, loans). This included Liens, child support, taxes, alimony, etc.

* The line you sign your name on your check is not actually a line but very tiny "Authorized Representative" IE: John Smith is acting on behalf of JOHN SMITH

Why?

Because Feds didn't have the power to enact laws on individual citizens at the time. So they created companies out of every citizen which they can then force to pay into Social Security (among other things). This has evolved over time granting the government the power much more power over individuals through their "shell companies"

Some sovereign citizens claim to be able to gain sole control over their shell corporation JOHN SMITH and with that all government encroachments on their rights via liens and taxes are invalid.

Disclaimer: I have no position on this conspiracy theory just providing a better summary

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by joe_the_user on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:14PM (#19537154)
I've always been impressed by an odd contrast within theories of this sort. The theories posit that the government acted illegally in various ways. But at the same time, the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey. Yet what force would cause this deeper law to prevail if the state was committed to its conspiracy?

Of course, this sort of thing could only appeal in the US, where a lot of the laws aren't product of a giant conspiracy but rather a complex patchwork of local, state and federal strictures, so a spew of incoherent legal nonsense takes a given court office a while to deal with.

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by tormeh on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:53PM (#19537482)
I dunno. Germany has the same kind of thing. Search for "Reichsbürger". Essentially these people reject the modern German nation, and say they belong to one reich or another - either the Kaiserreich or the Nazi one.

What these conspiracy people don't get is that a nation exists as a consequence of its subjects and warriors loyalty to it and obedience of it. It's just a power structure. All the legalities and voting and bureaucracy around it are just there because it's much easier for everyone to live with a power structure that behaves predictably, justly and generally nicely. But the legalities are not actually necessary. At the core the answer to "Why?" is "Because we can".

Note that I'm generally pro-government. I'd rather have one nice power structure to deal with than a world operating after the rules of school, where I have to protect my lunch money myself. This is just reality.

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by krapp on Sunday March 31, 2019 @08:48PM (#19539504)
Or as attorney Leonard French said regarding one Sovereign Citizen case on his Lawful Masses podcast[0]:

"We live in reality, where the four laws are not common law, statutory, code and... whatever. The real laws are the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, the electromagnetic force, and gravity. Everything else is fair game."

[0]https://youtu.be/nqPiQiinDTs?t=3143

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by AstralStorm on Sunday March 31, 2019 @09:04PM (#19539581)
The list is not exhaustive, we're looking for loopholes all the time.
Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by mindslight on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:32PM (#19537309)
> the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey

Isn't this the spirit of hacking in general?

Of course, they're trying to hack a system rooted in fundamentals that undermine hacking. So rather than a vulnerability leading to a "full compromise", the best that can be obtained is a minor advantage.

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by crooked-v on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:53PM (#19538309)
When you apply "hacking" to the law, if you don't already know what you're doing very well, it usually ends up called "fraud".

https://xkcd.com/1494/

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by AstralStorm on Sunday March 31, 2019 @09:05PM (#19539591)
Also embezzlement or violation of tax code. Sometimes even racketeering.
Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by mindslight on Sunday March 31, 2019 @05:23PM (#19538491)
"Fraud" is applicable to hacking contracts, not law in general. But yes, that's an example of what I meant by "fundamentals that undermine hacking".

Similarly, relying on technicalities you will still get tripped up by mens rea.

But other model-playing optimizations like tax avoidance are perfectly acceptable. As I said, "minor advantage" rather than "full compromise".

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by tptacek on Sunday March 31, 2019 @07:30PM (#19539171)
Really? You have "no position" on this conspiracy theory? You think it's possible that it might actually be true that everyone has been "incorporated" via the Social Security Act?
Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by ryanhuff on Sunday March 31, 2019 @01:57PM (#19537051)
Feds didn't have power to enact laws on individual citizens, so they enacted a law on citizens to convert them to corporations? Puzzled.
Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by volak on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:04PM (#19537095)
Citizens apply to SSN and a corporation is created for them - they are not forced to apply for one. Even to this day you can have a baby and not apply to SSN (increasing a good idea given the state of the program)
Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by crooked-v on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:17PM (#19537180)
Not applying for a SSN doesn't remove the requirement to pay FICA taxes. There's only a specific list of allowed exemptions.
Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by habnds on Sunday March 31, 2019 @04:25PM (#19538130)
yeah actually, it isn't a conspiracy theory but more like cultural critical theory, the book Seeing Like a State, is a great read about how the state works to transform the natural world into a world that can be quantified and managed by bureaucracy.

One of it's most interesting examples is how early modern governments reformed agricultural practices, not to raise productivity levels but to make them more easily measured and therefore taxed.

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by pbhjpbhj on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:10PM (#19537138)
In the UK we sometimes get this stuff leaking in, which is really interesting to me as obviously it fits far more poorly (ie doesn't) with the legal-historical position here.

It happens with "wage gap" stuff too; people assume the USA wage gap stats apply to them here.

Oh yeah, and we get Trump supporters.

I think copyright is the only other area I can recall where people assume USA legislation applies (that's a pre-internet example), some think you have to add © to get copyright protection.

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by learc83 on Sunday March 31, 2019 @07:37PM (#19539208)
>as obviously it fits far more poorly (ie doesn't) with the legal-historical position here

A country with a thousand years of accumulated legal rulings seems like fertile soil for conspiracy theories. Superseded common law is the framework for many sovereign citizen's arguments in the US.

>Oh yeah, and we get Trump supporters.

We also weirdly get Brexit supporters.

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by __ralston3 on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:06PM (#19537113)
Wow thank you for this concise explanation
Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by IIAOPSW on Sunday March 31, 2019 @02:02PM (#19537081)
Sovereigns start out by taking the classroom taught non-controversial idea of self determination to its logical extreme (every individual a country unto themselves). They don't need a foundational document because they believe that not answering to anyone is the natural state and therefore needs no deceleration. They further conclude that unnatural states (re: being born into someone else's rule) must be the result of some form of scam or trick. It has appeal because on the surface it is logical and congruent with things you learn in school.

Sovereign's go from extreme libertarian to crackpot in their explanation of why the world doesn't match their description of the natural free state. They invent an elaborate story of paper people and corporations and conspiracies to act as a sort of dark matter that makes their theory match reality. Soverign's can have wildly different takes on the dark matter while still agreeing on the core ideology.

Soverign's are basically just magical thinkers who happen to be libertarian.

Re:Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government... by AstralStorm on Sunday March 31, 2019 @09:09PM (#19539603)
Ultimately, the limit of someone's freedom is violence or contract (including concord).

It is silly to assume you can evade any given state forever unless you actually want to live like a hermit. Or start from scratch, like Americans of old, and even they had to fight and lose wars.