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Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:20PM (#19514358)
> I don't believe manufacturers should have to build things to be easy to take apart, to be replaceable or upgradeable, or anything else along those lines.

Why not?

> I'd rather see legislation that ensures when a piece of tech reaches the end of its useful lifetime it can be submitted back to the manufacturer and properly recycled at no cost to the user.

It is always and exclusively at the cost of the user?

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by duado on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:21PM (#19514371)
Making something that’s easy to take apart often makes it bigger, because interfaces need to be modularized. I’ve never needed to open one of my iPhones and would not want them 1mm thicker to be repairable.
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by Zarath on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:25PM (#19514421)
Maybe you've never needed to open your iphone because it would serve no purpose. If I could upgrade my old iphone by taking it apart, I wouldn't have bought a new one in the first place...
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by abalone on Thursday March 28, 2019 @03:51PM (#19515901)
You don’t have to buy a new iPhone to replace the battery, so presumably you’re imagining upgrading the processors, camera, sensors or some other aspect of the iPhone. Those components are so tightly integrated and custom fitted in each iteration of the device that it is technically impossible to “upgrade” them independently.
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by simion314 on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:39PM (#19514583)
Would you honestly be inconvenienced by the extra 1mm ? You could get the ability to replace your battery or screen on reasonable prices,
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by JustSomeNobody on Thursday March 28, 2019 @02:46PM (#19515248)
I once had a Mazda 6. In order replace the PCV valve one has to remove the manifold. A ten minutes job on any other car was a couple hours in this one. They didn't make it easy just because I have the right to repair it myself.

You shouldn't have to deal with an extra mm and all the inconvenience that comes along with it just to support my right to replace the battery.

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by dustindiamond on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:26PM (#19514429)
Do you use a 4s for its minimalist size?
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by duado on Thursday March 28, 2019 @02:22PM (#19515043)
SE.
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:55PM (#19514752)
> Making something that’s easy to take apart often makes it bigger, because interfaces need to be modularized.

So, you can still make it mandatory where you don't need to make things bigger?

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by iguy on Thursday March 28, 2019 @05:23PM (#19516772)
But who decides? There is going to be a ministry of "did it need to be so compact?" staffed by disinterested experts?

I'd love more things to be fixable but this kind of micro-management sounds terrifying.

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Thursday March 28, 2019 @07:34PM (#19517718)
> But who decides?

Well, I dunno, but that's a question with every law, and thus not exactly an argument by itself?

> I'd love more things to be fixable but this kind of micro-management sounds terrifying.

But why would there need to be micro-management?

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by iguy on Sunday March 31, 2019 @05:07PM (#19538391)
Because whether or not something could have been designed and made differently is a difficult, subjective, decision.

We're not talking about the need to have cops decide whether 71MPH was too fast or not. We're talking about whether your customers would hypothetically have been as satisfied with an iphone that was 1mm thicker, because if they would, there's a law which says you have to make it repairable. Bring your expert witnesses and panel surveys to convince the jury.

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by Dylan16807 on Thursday March 28, 2019 @07:01PM (#19517511)
That's the opposite of what the comment meant. The suggestion is that where it doesn't change the size/quality you mandate easier disassembly. Next to zero subjectivity.
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by iguy on Friday March 29, 2019 @03:29AM (#19519801)
Yes I got that. But my point is that this involves second-guessing every design decision.

You propose some new design which is more compact / easier to manufacture / more reliable because it has fewer connectors, and then you take it to the ministry for approval. How do they know whether your changes are justified? Maybe they sketch an easier-to-disassemble variant which is no bigger than yours, and reject your design, but they don't understand the why it will cost you twice as much to assemble that design (in your factory, with your workforce) or why you rejected that kind of connector (your experience with the supplier, or your vibration tests). Can you prove why you made these decisions? Call expert witnesses? This just seems like an impossible minefield to me.

I think better to tilt the balance in other ways, like pushing longer guarantees (regardless of whether the best solution is an unbreakable one-piece object, or a repairable one) and forcing recycling (so that the sticker price includes more of the total lifecycle cost).

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by kevinherron on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:35PM (#19514526)
> > I don't believe manufacturers should have to build things to be easy to take apart, to be replaceable or upgradeable, or anything else along those lines.

> Why not?

Because,

1) I personally don't care about this. 2) More important than 1, I don't think the law/government has any business deciding this. The market can decide (spoiler: it already has).

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday March 28, 2019 @02:57PM (#19515351)
The issue here is that garbage is an externality. If the device can be repaired it remains in service, otherwise it goes to a landfill to be replaced by another device that will itself also end up there.

Garbage is a problematic externality because if you try to charge true cost for it, people throw their garbage in the street or the ocean instead of paying. So we generally have subsidized trash pickup, and then "the market" literally overproduces garbage due to the subsidy.

One solution to that is to require the devices to pay the recycling cost up front, but everybody hates that because it makes the device more expensive, moreso than making it repairable would.

The other is to require it to be modular/repairable so that when one component fails or becomes obsolete it can be replaced or upgraded, which extends the life of the other components and reduces the total number of devices that have to be produced and ultimately end up in a landfill.

This may actually increase the original purchase price of the device by quite a bit, because the manufacturer will end up selling fewer units (that's the whole idea) but still have to recover the same fixed costs. But then the user doesn't have to replace their device as often, so the net cost should be slightly lower (the gain being the actual reduction in waste).

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by simion314 on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:37PM (#19514558)
Did the free markets ended slavery in US or under-age working? I remember many good things had to be forced with laws and not let to be decided by the big companies.
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by kevinherron on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:41PM (#19514603)
Are you equating the "injustice" of not being able replace the battery in your iPhone with that of slavery?
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by simion314 on Thursday March 28, 2019 @01:46PM (#19514664)
No, I am invalidating the point of "Free markets" solve things, so you can ignore the slavery and put other things free markets did not solve like pollution,cigarettes etc but I assume someone would bring the excuse that the goverment was at fault all along and free markets were not free.
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday March 28, 2019 @03:57PM (#19515956)
> Did the free markets ended slavery in US

In a very oblique manner it did. Industrialization (which was very much a product of free markets) of the Northern States made the economics of slavery untenable in the North. Once people were not as blinded by profits, they could actually see that slavery was a moral evil. In the South, the economics were very different and therefore a lot of rationalizations were formed as to why slavery was not that evil.

In addition, Industrialization enabled larger population growth in the North as well as larger production. This is what gave the Union the advantage in manpower and material that allowed the North to win the Civil War.

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by AnthonyMouse on Friday March 29, 2019 @02:52AM (#19519650)
> Once people were not as blinded by profits, they could actually see that slavery was a moral evil.

It was actually quite the opposite. Pre-industrialization, serfdom and slavery were basically equivalent. You hand a local lord and if you worked for him you got food and shelter. Your alternative was to run off into the wilderness and fend for yourself, which frequently meant starving or freezing to death or being mauled by a bear. Unsurprisingly not many people chose that.

Then factories show up and suddenly your alternative is to run off and go work in the factory. Naturally many people started preferring to do that, which turned the plantations upside down because their economic system was based on the workers not having anywhere else to go.

Their response was brutal. Chains to keep slaves from running away, hunting runaway slaves with dogs, savage beatings, etc. None of that stuff was really commonplace before industrialization. The response to industrialization was what made 19th century slavery so much worse than traditional serfdom.

But that response was as futile as it was brutish. The factories made slavery uneconomical. You can't defeat supply and demand with chains and whips. All they do is cause the slaves to want to run away more.

The factories destroyed slavery directly, by out-competing it. It's questionable whether the war was even net positive -- that was a whole lot of blood spilled over an economic system that couldn't have sustained itself much longer in any event.

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Friday March 29, 2019 @04:32PM (#19525380)
I agree with what you say. I meant my comment mainly about the North. There, like you said, the factories made slavery uneconomical. Because their livelihoods did not depend on slavery, people were able to take a more objective look at the morality of slavery and come to the conclusion that it was an evil.

In the South, people's livelihood depending on slavery. Because of that, their minds did all sorts of rationalizations as to why slavery was not that bad.

>The response to industrialization was what made 19th century slavery so much worse than traditional serfdom.

The other thing that made 19th century slavery so much worse than traditional serfdom was the racial aspect. If a serf had some skill and went to a town and somehow became a craftsman, people could not look at the him and know he had once been a serf. Because of the racial aspect, ex-slaves could not escape people immediately knowing that they had been slaves.

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by simion314 on Thursday March 28, 2019 @05:55PM (#19517014)
How were the markets less free in the south? From what I know from history the difference was that south was more agriculture focused and this meant they had different interest then the north , I am not from US so I did not studied all the details of US history.

Even if say free market solved the issue, is it reasonable to wait centuries for the free markets to solve things then dare to vote some laws ?

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by iguy on Friday March 29, 2019 @04:44AM (#19520042)
Well the labor market was certainly less free, for one :)

It's worth knowing that the south was once considerably richer than the north, but industrialisation changed things in the 19th C, by the end of which the north was vastly richer (per capita), richer than anywhere had ever been before. In this sense free capitalism did vastly outcompete an unfree economy.

Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by simion314 on Friday March 29, 2019 @07:40AM (#19520721)
IMO not free market solved the problem.
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by darkpuma on Thursday March 28, 2019 @09:44PM (#19518450)
The mechanized cotton gin greatly increased the demand for slave labor in cotton fields.
Re:Internal Documents Show Apple Is Capable of Implementing ... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Thursday March 28, 2019 @02:03PM (#19514831)
> 2) More important than 1, I don't think the law/government has any business deciding this.

Why?

> The market can decide

Does that mean that it should decide?

> (spoiler: it already has).

Has it? How did you determine that?