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Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by iandanforth on Thursday March 21, 2019 @11:42AM (#19453645)
Ignorant American question. Why is this the case? What are the costs that railroads are having to pay that makes them more expensive?
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by Symbiote on Thursday March 21, 2019 @02:06PM (#19455423)
In no particular order:

1) Fuel tax. There's no tax on jet fuel, but rail companies pay tax on their diesel or electricity

2) Inflexible service, but high expectations. The European rail timetable is changed twice a year, and those trains will run (in normal circumstances). There will be a train from X→Y every hour from 5am until midnight, and those trains run even if very few people use them on a particular day. An airline can change the schedules more easily, and cancel/rebook passengers at fairly short notice.

3) Rail infrastructure is subsidized differently to aircraft infrastructure. I don't know enough to compare which benefits the most. Externalities aren't costed properly (e.g. noise and pollution).

4) Railways must still provide low-profit-(even loss)-making services, they may be expected to do this using profits from other routes. For example, long distance intercity trains might be subsidizing rural services.

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by Scoundreller on Thursday March 21, 2019 @03:29PM (#19456344)
Railways also have the externality of stopping all traffic.

More of an issue for lumbering freight trains than passenger trains though.

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by sjmulder on Thursday March 21, 2019 @05:47PM (#19457703)
This came up in something related: the Dutch Greens have been campaigning recently to reduce or eliminate flights to and from Schiphol within a 750 km radius, in favour of trains.

Answering your question, on the issue of price they note that no fuel tax is is paid on airplanes fuel and no VAT (21%) on flight tickets.

I think it’s a clever win/win play: reducing short haul flights in favour of railways not only reduces emissions and noise pollution, but it also frees up some capacity at Schiphol.

And there’s been some success already: the house has accepted a motion to eliminate the Schiphol-Brussels route.

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by elif on Thursday March 21, 2019 @12:31PM (#19454230)
I'm also an ignorant american, but I've traveled Europe for months by rail and air.

By american standards, both methods are dirt cheap.

Ryanair cuts every cost you can imagine. No free water or pretzels, tiny seating area, no first class, outskirts airports, no checked or carry on, tarmac boarding.

On trains you get sufficient space to stretch your legs, a power outlet, wifi, unlimited baggage etc. and you get to arrive and depart in the city center.

I think the pricing is based upon consumer value more than service costs.

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by rpiguy on Thursday March 21, 2019 @12:17PM (#19454063)
So long as fuel is reasonably priced, planes can take more people farther, faster it is simple economics. Trains are still preferable for local trips and even some medium range trips, but to go all the way across Europe by train would be terribly expensive compared to taking a cheap flight.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by ip26 on Thursday March 21, 2019 @12:38PM (#19454328)
That doesn't really answer the question. What about planes is cheaper? For simple economics to apply, they have to do something cheaper than trains, and it's not obvious what that is. As far as I know, for example, trains are significantly more fuel efficient per passenger-mile.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by hylaride on Thursday March 21, 2019 @01:00PM (#19454588)
There are several reasons why flying can be so cheap in Europe:

1. The discount airlines have become masters at turnaround times. When the planes are sitting at the gate, they're not making money. They slashed these as much as they could.

2. They only fly one model of airplane (typically either the 373 or a320) to simplify maintenance.

3. Most major airports in Europe are privatised. One of the effects of this is that they've become giant malls that want to get people through them, so landing fees have steadily gone down (there are edge cases where the airports pay the airlines to go to them, but those are rather rare exceptions).

4. Some airlines (more specifically Ryanair) fly to cheaper/more outlier airports. If you take a Ryanair flight to Paris, you're landing in Beauvais Airport, which is almost halfway to the english channel. You'll then have to take a bus. When in europe, I usually prefer Easyjet for the reason that though they're more expensive, you're landing at an airport with decent transit to the city you're visiting.

5. There's no frills at all. If you're just flying with no luggage, you won't believe how cheap it can be (I flew from madrid to london for 25 euros). But the fills aren't cheap. Checked baggage is more than the cost of the flight, food is a rip off, etc.

Also, trains in europe are still often state-owned (not the case everywhere, I know), so they're forced to run uneconomical lines for political purposes, etc.

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by mrighele on Thursday March 21, 2019 @02:04PM (#19455393)
> (there are edge cases where the airports pay the airlines to go to them, but those are rather rare exceptions).

Thing may have changed since a few things happened meanwhile, but a couple of years ago Ryanair got about 100 Million EUR [1] (sorry, link in Italian) from various Italian airports. Verona airport used to pay up to 24 EUR per passenger to low cost companies.

My understanding is that some airports have been opened for political reasons even when there was no real need, so they are "forced" to make such agreements in order to guarantee a decent amount of passengers.

I'm wondering if this happens also elsewhere in Europe.

[1] https://www.corriere.it/economia/17_marzo_18/cento-milioni-a...

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by The_Double on Thursday March 21, 2019 @02:45PM (#19455921)
> 1. The discount airlines have become masters at turnaround times. When the planes are sitting at the gate, they're not making money. They slashed these as much as they could.

As a european who moved to the US recently, this was mind boggeling the first time I boarded a plane in the US. I arrived at the airport expecting a typical 10 minute boarding time, but kept getting more surprised at how inefficient they managed to make boarding a plane as time passed. Just the time spend waiting in the plane at the gate before they let you get out seems to be longer in some cases than the typical turnaround time for euro flights.

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by ip26 on Thursday March 21, 2019 @01:05PM (#19454667)
So in short, European flights have doggedly cut all ancillary costs while rail has not done so quite as heavily/aggressively?
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by inferiorhuman on Thursday March 21, 2019 @04:02PM (#19456633)
Airlines are able to externalize costs that rail lines are not able to.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by jandrese on Thursday March 21, 2019 @03:00PM (#19456069)
Not having to maintain thousands of miles of rail seems like a big cost savings right up front. Trains should have lower fuel costs, but fuel really isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things. People are also willing to give up some creature comforts if the trip is short which helps airlines. Trains also have a lower throughput of passengers compared to employee hours, so salary costs per passenger are higher.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by rpiguy on Sunday March 24, 2019 @05:19PM (#19478843)
The simple economics is in passenger volume. A plane can carry more people, to more destinations within Europe, several times a day.

Your statement that "As far as I know, for example, trains are significantly more fuel efficient per passenger-mile" definitely has some merit, but... trains are only more fuel efficient per passenger if they are as full as planes. An Airbus with 180 passengers might beat a train in per passenger miles if the train is not loaded.

Considering that, trains definitely are cheaper for highly utilized routes (commuting routes, for example), but for a leisurely trip across Europe, an Airbus packed to the gils could be cheaper.

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by sl1ck731 on Thursday March 21, 2019 @12:59PM (#19454577)
Planes most likely benefit from the economies of scale, simply for the huge number of riders they service in comparison with trains for longer stretches.

The complicated area of railroad tracks probably doesn't help either. Someone is paying for them and the maintenance is frequent judging by the business my friends working on the railroads get.

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by NoNameHaveI on Thursday March 21, 2019 @01:05PM (#19454671)
This is worth your 8 minutes of time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbEfzuCLoAQ I love trains, but the economics of rail travel in the USA can't be overcome. Until robot trains.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by munk-a on Thursday March 21, 2019 @02:02PM (#19455366)
I have seen that and agree that country-wide train service is indeed expensive, but there really should be better offerings on the east coast that could compete against bus service. Being on a train with plenty of room has a huge quality advantage over buses and the scaling of their carrying capacity means that companies can be more free in allowing luggage and seating space than the economics of planning the layout of a bus.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by ghaff on Thursday March 21, 2019 @03:27PM (#19456323)
Train service in the US Northeast is pretty good at least for the cities it services. It's not price-competitive with Megabus but is train anywhere competitive pricewise with discount buses?
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by inferiorhuman on Thursday March 21, 2019 @03:57PM (#19456580)
at least for the cities it services

And that's the catch. I've been told that years ago it was better, but try to catch a train to a secondary city in New England and you'll often find that the only offering is an occasional Amtrak branded bus.

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by ghaff on Thursday March 21, 2019 @04:10PM (#19456725)
Fair enough. It's mostly the coastal corridor that's good with a couple on inland spurs from NY/New Haven up to St. Albans and Montreal that aren't terrible. But otherwise, there's something of a gap between commuter rail systems (which are pretty hub and spoke in any case) and what Amtrak covers.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by munk-a on Thursday March 21, 2019 @04:16PM (#19456791)
As a former vermonter... The St. Albans service is terrible, trains go into Essex Junction (basically, Burlington) once a day and the train leaves NYC at 11:33 am and gets in at 8:18 pm, eight hours for what is a five hour drive with a single train a day.

I don't disagree that some other services might be alright, but that's clearly not one of them.

Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by ghaff on Thursday March 21, 2019 @04:41PM (#19457081)
I haven't kept up on those services. I know they've come and gone over the years but I was being charitable. I used to semi-regularly take the train from White River Junction to Philadelphia but I pretty much only use the Acela/Northeast Regional these days and that's really the "good-ish" part of the service I'm aware of. (Where good-ish is defined as preferable to driving, the bus, and plane--so long as not doing the whole length.)
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by inferiorhuman on Thursday March 21, 2019 @05:56PM (#19457777)
New Haven? Ugh. Connecticut fucks with Amtrak relentlessly. Take a look at how Acela slows to a crawl out there.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by blang on Thursday March 21, 2019 @12:16PM (#19454048)
This video does a pretty good job of explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwjwePe-HmA
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by nicoburns on Thursday March 21, 2019 @01:39PM (#19455094)
Part of it is fuel tax (which planes don't pay in Europe). I'm speculating, but I'd guess that the maintenance on the tracks is pretty significant. Planes don't have that issue.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by xioxox on Thursday March 21, 2019 @01:50PM (#19455222)
Trains need a lot of infrastructure, meaning maintenance and construction costs (i.e. tracks and stations). Also, as they are slower, wage costs can be higher than planes.
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Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by dang on Friday March 22, 2019 @02:31AM (#19460072)
I misread the comment the same way at first, but he was clearly just being polite and self-deprecating.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by MisterScrooge on Friday March 22, 2019 @11:53AM (#19463734)
Good point - that's 100% my bad. I wish I could retract my comment, but I don't think there's a way; I appreciate your insight.
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by dang on Friday March 22, 2019 @01:17PM (#19464640)
Since we're the only ones in the subthread, I'll just delete your comment. (Am a moderator here in case that's not clear.)
Re:There is no reason to cross the U.S. by train, but I did ... by MisterScrooge on Monday March 25, 2019 @04:59PM (#19486692)
That makes sense. I knew I had seen your scree name before lol. Thank you - much appreciated.