No empathy. Kick those still in out, and revoke the degrees for those already graduated. In fact if these falsely admitted kids had any sense of decency, they would be now lining up to turn in their ‘credentials’ and degrees.

Yes, some may have not known about it. And that’s an interesting conversation they will have with their parents about royally screwing them over. But you don’t get a pass for breaking a law just because you were unaware of it either.

On a more serious note, we are severely punishing people of color for trying to advance their kids educational opportunities[0]. If we don’t offer same courtesy to these perpetrators, what kind of country are we living in and what kind of message will that send out?

[0] https://educationpost.org/while-rich-people-bribe-their-kids...

Agreed. Allowing these kids to retain admission or a degree, if graduated, would severely undermine the credibility of the admission systems at those universities for legitimately-admitted students.

If anything, after the current uproar dies down, it would encourage more of the same. It would send the message that even after this problem becomes national and international news with dozens of criminal charges to the perpetrators, those schools will still do nothing if you get caught.

I think it should be more metered. Those currently enrolled lose their enrollment status and must reapply. Those who have graduated should be subject to further investigation, and if they did the work and passed their classes, they should keep their degree. It was enrollment fraud, not academic fraud.

Maybe put a prominent mark on the transcript that the enrollment was fraudulent? Similar to how withdrawn sports and music industry records are noted on the books. And there would need to be a public list that employers could check to verify whether or not a degree from one of these schools was fraudulently obtained. These people should not get a free pass or be able to claim that their degrees were not tainted by fraud.

If they knew about it, I agree. Some obviously did, others perhaps not.

Those who graduated got in with false premise and took away opportunity from someone else. They got the education, that must be worth something. But the degree, it belongs to someone else, and it should go.

In no way has this been a victimless fraud.

What concerns me the most is that as the ruling classes change over time, you’ll end up with an overthrow of the system by people who are under educated, for whatever reason. So rather than building on existing knowledge or improving it, they’ll essentially revert back and repeat past mistakes or invent new ones that would have been avoided if they were better educated.

I have to say I see this all the time in tech with people having no clue why we do things the way we do, why a e2e test doesn’t replace a unit test for example is lost on many developers these days even.

The kids themselves were in most cases unaware of their parents’ deception.

We shouldn’t be lining up to punish 19 year olds for their parents’ crimes. Large fines and jail time for the parents is punishment enough here.

It's true that the kids who did not know about the wrong that granted them admission should not be viewed as morally culpable and should not be "punished". But to suggest that they should still be allowed to benefit from fraud isn't the right answer either. Ill-got admission or degrees should be revoked. Insofar as those rewards of fraud should be revoked, and the kids unaware, the students are themselves victims of their parents along with those others that were defrauded; that they would be harmed by the fraud of their parents shouldn't be surprising to them or anyone else. (They are, after all, adults).

Those still in school should be expelled on some sort of "no fault" basis. They could then be allowed to reapply and demonstrate that they really belong there on their own merits. For those already with degrees, it's less clear and I don't have a good answer; I don't see any way out that either prevents the fraud from succeeding in it's goal (untenable) or is overtly punitive towards the student (also untenable)... the only real answer there is revoke the degree and tell the student/victim to seek redress from the ones that committed fraud (their parents).

I wouldn't rule out that they were aware of what was happening. I'd believe a fraction didn't know but I at least knew how I faired after taking SAT/ACT placements and submitting applications.

If they did perform better, I'd have to suspect that it might be a result of even more cheating.

Apparently not all were aware of how they were accepted so they may not have cheated after that.

Also students who are legitimately smart cheat too, which I’ve seen first hand, mainly because they feel their time is better spent on other projects than grinding away at homework for example.

Let’s not forget a good proportion of high achievers at university are basically taking performance enhancing legal amphetamines in the form of ADHD medication.

I saw this too in high school, ridilin was trivial to come by. If you’re graded on a bell curve and you’re playing the game so to speak then playing by the “rules” doesn’t make sense since the rules are just a guise. That was the insight I saw from some higher achievers.

I doubt their parents care enough to pay for cheating at that point. The school name is what really matters.

(source: used to work in the seedy underbelly of Asian US college admissions consulting)

Some students pay to have papers written for them, and others have access to test banks. It's probably not parents paying off university staff at that point though.

Why would you chose this line of work (serious question, not a value judgment)? Did you know how amoral it was when you first applied? What caused you to leave?

How seedy is it, compared to what we know about Singer? I'm guessing no outright bribery, but what about essay "help"? Cheating on tests?

My guess is they won’t revoke degrees but folks currently in school are at risk. When you look at graduation percentages from the top schools, you realize not many fail out.

Those in school are absolutely at risk. I work in the industry. If we found out at any point that someone had lied or faked a credential, they would be out. And applications require a student signature or electronic affirmation to the accuracy of their submission. There's no reasonable expectation that a student didn't or couldn't have known there were errors or falsehoods. In the case of test scores, the student would have been aware that they did not have a legitimate IEP for test accommodations, so there's no deniability for them to say the parents arranged the fraud without their knowledge. I've seen the test agencies invalidate scores for much less. That too then negates the entire application decision. Absent direct hard evidence of student knowledge, some schools may choose to overlook some of the factors and be lenient. Those students should consider themselves very fortunate.

>applications require a student signature or electronic affirmation to the accuracy of their submission

Yes. I fail to understand all these people stating that it was not the fault of the students. They lied on their applications. It is akin to being asked at an airport if you packed your bags yourself.

These students signed a legally binding affirmation that the information they submitted was accurate (and sometimes a statement that they completed the application without assistance), and, thusly, they are as equally guilty of fraud as their parents.

But would they revoke the degree years later too?

I'm not sure we could. The case can be made that the student did the coursework to earn the degree, even if their initial admission was fraudulently obtained. I think we'd scrutinize that coursework for any other evidence of fraud/cheating though. Ultimately it would come down to the lawyers and courts to work out.

In Canada, I think degrees would be revoked if there was clear evidence that students actively participated in the fraud which obtained their admission. But in this case it seems that most students were unaware of what their parents were doing; we would probably revoke admission for any students who hadn't completed their degrees, but not take away anything they had achieved while at the university. (And they would be free to apply for re-admission -- and almost certainly get it, if they had good grades in the courses they had completed so far.)

Ultimately it would come down to the lawyers and courts to work out.

Would the courts get involved? In Canada, absent clear signs of a defective process, courts are extremely unlikely to overrule universities on academic issues.

I mean the courts would get involved if the schools rescinded the degree because students would file a lawsuit. You're right, they wouldn't do it of their own accord. And they might dismiss the case on its merits, hard to say.

Right, I'm saying that in Canada if a university decides to revoke a degree, I can't imagine a court hearing a lawsuit beyond checking that the university in question was procedurally fair.