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Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by snowwrestler on Thursday March 14, 2019 @03:33PM (#19392718)
Your ideal voting system is vulnerable to coercion ("log in and show me who you voted for or else") and phishing.

Voting systems should provide confidence to voters that votes are counted correctly, but not permit anyone, including the voters themselves, to learn how they voted after the ballot is cast.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by allworknoplay on Thursday March 14, 2019 @03:54PM (#19392946)
Yes, thank you. People frequently forget critical lessons from history :p
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by mike741 on Thursday March 14, 2019 @04:43PM (#19393495)
how does the current system, or any voting system, prevent coercion? If there's a gun to your head, or some other ultimatum, it seems far too late to be worrying about your vote being shared. Even if votes aren't all logged, you can still be tortured for the answer. I would much rather the country have an individual coercion problem than a mass voting fraud problem.

"Voting systems should [...] not permit anyone, including the voters themselves, to learn how they voted" What could possibly be the benefit of that?

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Thursday March 14, 2019 @04:53PM (#19393597)
> how does the current system, or any voting system, prevent coercion?

By only allowing you alone into the voting booth, not allowing you to show your ballot to anyone, collecting the ballots in a sealed ballot box that's located in public that anonymizes the votes

> Even if votes aren't all logged, you can still be tortured for the answer.

No, you can't if there is no way for you to prove how you voted.

> I would much rather the country have an individual coercion problem than a mass voting fraud problem.

Why would one have anything to do with the other?

Also, one way to keep a country free from individual coercion problems is by having a reliable election process.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by snowwrestler on Thursday March 14, 2019 @04:54PM (#19393602)
Ok, you put a gun to my head and tell me to vote for Hillary. I go into the ballot box and vote for Trump. I come out and you ask me if I voted Hillary. I say yes, I voted for Hillary, of course.

If there is no possible way for you or me to know (edit: prove) if I'm telling the truth, how is that worth your time and energy? It's not.

The benefit of a secret ballot is that it greatly reduces, if not removes, the incentive for coercion.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by hanniabu on Thursday March 14, 2019 @06:01PM (#19394265)
Seems like burning an orchard for a few bad apples. It's this really that large of a concern vs voter fraud?
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by snowwrestler on Thursday March 14, 2019 @06:27PM (#19394492)
Yes. The U.S. originally did not use secret ballots in federal elections and we switched to them because of widespread coercion.

A durable record that maps votes to voters does not prevent voter fraud, it enables it.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by 50korangutang on Monday March 18, 2019 @07:54AM (#19420333)
Postal voting allows the same type of fraud, so an electronic system would only be as vulnerable as our current system in this respect.
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by OrgNet on Friday March 15, 2019 @08:53AM (#19399201)
computers enable easy mass voter fraud... so we need to stay with paper ballot or we need a way to see if our vote is in the total number of votes, coercion aside...
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by zepolen on Thursday March 14, 2019 @07:14PM (#19394851)
This is how it actually works:

1. Mobster goes in to vote but doesn't put it in the box - he takes the blank ballot paper outside with him.

2. He fills the vote on the ballot and gives it to the coerced voter 1. He expects a blank ballot back, or else. He has his goons watching the voter throw the real ballot in the box, or else.

3. Using the new blank ballot he goes to coerced voter 2, and the cycle continues.

Of course this is hard to scale.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by jacques_chester on Thursday March 14, 2019 @07:24PM (#19394930)
This scheme is prevented by having scrutineers appointed by multiple candidates. Australia does this and it works well.
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by zepolen on Thursday March 14, 2019 @07:36PM (#19395006)
How would they stop that?
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by jacques_chester on Thursday March 14, 2019 @07:43PM (#19395058)
By having dozens of people watching everything except the actual marking of the ballot. Scrutineers are highly motivated: they want to catch the other candidate cheating.

I've been a scrutineer in a polling room. I could watch and challenge anything except the marking of a ballot. And I did. So did other scrutineers. The odds of the mobster keeping a rotating scheme without detection approach zero with great rapidity, especially since staying in the ballot after casting your vote is not permitted.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by snowwrestler on Thursday March 14, 2019 @10:38PM (#19395961)
Yup. In the U.S. they are generally called poll watchers.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2016/10/29/politics/poll-watchers-moni...

Also, a voter who is being intimidated by a mobster could just walk up to a poll worker or police officer and report it.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by zepolen on Thursday March 14, 2019 @10:29PM (#19395917)
He wouldn't stay in the ballot - he'd pocket the slip and take it outside...
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by jacques_chester on Thursday March 14, 2019 @11:03PM (#19396077)
Returning to my point, which is that he'd need to do this without anyone noticing.

A bit difficult since there are officials watching you put the ballot into the box. Or, gee, that's weird, failing to put the ballot into the box.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by zepolen on Monday March 18, 2019 @05:12AM (#19419628)
Couldn't they put a random piece of paper in the ballot box?

What happens if a white piece of paper is found? Do all the votes in the box get cancelled?

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by yazaddaruvala on Thursday March 14, 2019 @06:06PM (#19394315)
If you really want a secret voting system such that the voter can’t access their own history, then just do not offer the password option. Instead a unique private key is generated, but never distributed to the voter or any other party.

- Key: Encrypted SSN

- Value: Unencrypted Vote

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by yazaddaruvala on Thursday March 14, 2019 @06:07PM (#19394328)
However, I’d personally prefer a system that was fully public. Problems: Social Pressure, Violent/Non-Violent Coercion, Retaliation.

Coercion could be a problem but with enough humans seems unlikely to be effective without the details of the conspiring entity to leak. If here are 10 jurors or a few judges coercion matters because it is easy to cover up. Coercion at scale has never occurred. Coercing any double digit percentage of 300 MM voters through violence or bribes or etc will leak based on the law of large numbers. Conspiracies stop being theories when they are validated by thousands/millions of people.

Social pressure is a bit trickier. It does force any minority voice to reconsider their vote. However, this isn’t different from most of history where a violent or non-violent revolution occurs. Most people lie about their opinion officially but build consensus privately. Until a point where the scale tips and both opinions are appropriate and debatable.

Retaliation is the biggest issue. But we already have some pretty good laws in place around discrimination based on politics. We can improve those, but also as a society we need to get better at debate without retaliation and hiding opinions doesn’t help that societal improvement.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by jacques_chester on Thursday March 14, 2019 @07:23PM (#19394918)
The ballot was not always secret.

It was made secret because all the problems you say aren't important, were very important.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by snowwrestler on Thursday March 14, 2019 @10:41PM (#19395976)
Always fun to see how easy it is to design a system when one can just hand-wave away important constraints.
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by memory_grep on Thursday March 14, 2019 @03:58PM (#19392981)
Laws can prevent coercion, at least by major businesses, but another concern is people selling their votes on a black market. Still, to me, the benefits of an open and verifiable voting system would outweigh the downsides.
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by macintux on Thursday March 14, 2019 @04:01PM (#19393011)
I'll take a paper ballot system with electronic counting, thus something that can be verified, over something that leaves people afraid to vote because it's no longer truly anonymous.

I've been around too many women in abusive relationships to feel comfortable with that approach.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by snowwrestler on Thursday March 14, 2019 @05:06PM (#19393713)
A simple secret ballot by paper is both open (anyone can observe the ballot casting and counting) and verifiable (the vote count can be repeated to confirm the totals).

Voters don't need to be able to verify their vote post-election because a) they cast their ballot, so they can just remember who they voted for, and b) they can't change their decision, so there is no need to have a record of it.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by swalsh on Thursday March 14, 2019 @04:01PM (#19393015)
Fair enough, this idea came to me before 2016. Post 2016, in this world where people are ready to commit violence purely based off their judgement of your political beliefs, this is a legitimate concern.
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by agentdrtran on Thursday March 14, 2019 @04:33PM (#19393376)
as we all know, political violence and coercion did not exist before 2016
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by swalsh on Thursday March 14, 2019 @06:09PM (#19394340)
Not what I said. It was not obviously a problem to me before the election.
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by fossuser on Thursday March 14, 2019 @04:00PM (#19392995)
I love voting by mail, but I don't understand how that's legal since you could just coerce someone that way?

Force them to vote by mail, watch them fill out the ballot (or fill it out for them), and mail it in.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by zanny on Thursday March 14, 2019 @11:37PM (#19396246)
Generally all mail in voting systems let you override your vote. If someone coerces you once and you send in another ballot postmarked after the first or go to your polling location in person on election day you can override that vote.

You basically need to hold someone hostage or under total surveillance from when the ballot is mailed to when the polls are closed to avoid them just sending in their actual ballot afterwards.

With an electronic voting system the window of time you have to hold someone hostage is much shorter - simply force their vote an hour before the polls close and then hold them prisoner for the hour.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by fossuser on Friday March 15, 2019 @01:33AM (#19396855)
This is an interesting answer and makes more sense - still possible to do, but harder.
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by nielgaard on Thursday March 14, 2019 @06:58PM (#19394742)
At least here in Denmark mail voting does not just mean that you send your vote by mail.

It means that you before the voting date go to a public office, a consulate in a foreign country, etc., show you ID, go into a voting booth and votes, and they put you vote into an envelope, that is sealed and mailed to voting place.

Or that two appointed volunteers goes to e.g., a assisted living facility and witness residents voting and placing their vote in a envelope that is then sealed and mailed to a voting place.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by macintux on Thursday March 14, 2019 @04:02PM (#19393029)
Voting by mail is indeed vulnerable to fraud, as we saw in North Carolina last election.
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by bdamm on Thursday March 14, 2019 @04:12PM (#19393147)
When thinking about voting by mail I wouldn't consider North Carolina's system as exemplar, since it is still primarily a polling-place election. Instead, look towards Washington, Oregon, and Colorado which are states where elections are entirely by mail. Evidence of coercion or fraud is low, and engagement is high.
Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by macintux on Thursday March 14, 2019 @05:55PM (#19394219)
How do we know how many spouses are (or simply feel) compelled to vote a certain way?

I’m not saying fraud is rampant, but there’s no denying the fact that on the individual level fraud and coercion are much easier to achieve when voting is done outside the polling booth.

Re:DARPA Is Building a $10M, Open-Source, Secure Voting System by joveian on Thursday March 14, 2019 @07:29PM (#19394961)
In many states it is possible to get an absentee ballot for any reason, which allows the same coersion potential but without the convenience of full vote by mail. Forcing voting in person also has a large effect on who actually votes (due to work or other issues getting in the way, which could also include coersion from a spouse who thought you might vote the wrong way or doesn't think you should be able to vote). Presumably people are checking if there are large swings in voting patterns when vote by mail is started that would indicate widespread coersion. Coersion can also be effective in practice even when the actual voting is done in secret.

I wouldn't recommend vote by mail for Mexico, where there is widespread vote buying even with secret ballots, but for the US it seems to me that vote by mail is likely to be more representative and increase the chance that voters will research the candidates as they are voting. No system is perfect so it is a question of what tradeoffs seem to make the most sense for particular situations.