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Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by js2 on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @01:37AM (#19365679)
I think you’re slightly mischaracterizing the cause in the AF447 flight in that there was a lot more going on than just the airspeed indicator:

AF447 crashed because of a cyclical series of erroneous inputs based on unreliable prompts from aircraft systems; a cycle that fed on itself to the extent that control was never regained. The BEA’s final report attributes multiple factors to the AF447 mishap: temporary and repeated inconsistencies and loss of airspeed indication; inappropriate control inputs; failure to identify unreliable indicated speed; the approach to stall; the full stall state; and the inability to apply an appropriate response in these flight regimes.

https://sma.nasa.gov/docs/default-source/safety-messages/saf...

Also, in the AF447 case the computer had to defer to the human because it didn’t know what the air speed was. In contrast, one thing that’s surprising to me in Lion case is that the MCAS seemed to be willing to trust a faulty AoA sensor:

The DFDR recorded a difference between left and right Angle of Attack (AoA) of about 20° and continued until the end of recording.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4bf90724/0009&opt=0

So it’s got a pair of AoA sensors that aren’t in agreement (split brain, as it were) and it’s going to command nose down anyway?

(I’m sure there’s a reason there aren’t triple redundant sensors where two have to agree or some such. I think the flight computer does require the various different kinds of sensors to agree, but I don’t think there’s triple redundancy of each sensor.)

(Edit: sorry folks, I edited this a bunch of times so the replies below may not make perfect sense. I should really start typing my replies offline.)

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by bitwalker on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @01:54AM (#19365753)
They can't agree though - angle of attack and airspeed are two different measurements. Together they can be used to detect a stall condition, but independently are insufficient. Furthermore, if either are incorrect or inoperable, then a stall may be misreported or not reported when it should be.

AoA is really the weak point in my opinion, the probe can get stuck or iced up; they always seemed extremely fragile to me for something so critical. Not to mention, redundancy is limited by the number of probes, of which there are only two on all the aircraft I've worked on, so if they ice up, that's it. IIRC that's what started the chain of events which brought down the Air France fight.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by burfog on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @07:43AM (#19367197)
Given the expense and size of airliners, it might be worth determining AoA via tracking minute dust particles with LIDAR. That should be highly reliable, with very direct speed measurement in airflow that isn't in any way disturbed by the aircraft. You also get airspeed.

Maybe there is an alternative to AoA. The whole point is to determine how air will be affecting surfaces such as the wing, so one could instead just put pressure transducers all over the aircraft. From that you can determine how close you are to stalling. You can even tell where on the aircraft a stall is imminent.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by js2 on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @02:10AM (#19365802)
I edited my comment and removed the airspeed reference but what I meant it that MCAS is only supposed to activate at airspeeds approaching stall and high AoA (and some other things). In the Lion case the plane had a pair of AoA sensors in disagreement and the airspeed shouldn’t be near stall in level flight, should it? Yet the MCAS commands nose down anyway.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by chipsa on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @08:10AM (#19377834)
Define "airspeeds approaching stall". You can stall a wing at any airspeed, if the angle of attack is great enough. And being able to tell if your angle of attack is great enough is the point of the AoA sensors.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by baybal2 on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @04:03AM (#19366197)
AoE sensors may well be in disagreement even without malfunction: local turbulence, flying in somebody's wake, etc
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by neuronic on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @05:38AM (#19366556)
AoA sensors might disagree to a point, but 20 degrees difference is ... unusual.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by cperciva on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @01:41AM (#19365705)
Air France 447 was an Airbus 330. I think 333 is a typo.

It was a typo, but for "332" (which is the jargon for "330-200").

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by raverbashing on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @03:17AM (#19366022)
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by zkms on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @04:18AM (#19366254)
A specific aspect of the AF447 incident that has not been mentioned here is the fact that the incident aircraft's computers declared data from the Angle of Attack (AOA) sensors INVALID if the measured airspeed was LESS than 60 knots.

By itself, this is a sensible thing to do, since the AOA sensors are composed of a little vane that is free to rotate and align itself with the direction of airflow, connected to an angle resolver that measures the angle of the vane. If the airflow is not fast enough, there will not be enough force exerted to reliably and continually align the vane, thus the instantaneous angle of the vane may not conform to the angle of the airflow. To quote the BEA report:

> If the CAS [calibrated air speed] measurements for the three ADR [air data reference] are lower than 60 kt, the angle of attack values of the three ADR are invalid and the stall warning is then inoperative. This results from a logic stating that the airflow must be sufficient to ensure a valid measurement by the angle of attack sensors, especially to prevent spurious warnings.

However, the pilot flying had gotten the airspeed under that 60kt threshold, which inhibited the stall warning. When he reacted by pushing the control stick forwards (the correct reaction to a stall), the airspeed increased (a good thing, you need airspeed for lift) and the AOA decreased (also a good thing). However, the airspeed quickly increased over the 60kt threshold -- well before the AOA had a chance to decrease past its threshold. Therefore, the stall warning sounded again.

This does not fit into any mental model of how aircraft operate. A pilot knows, from their training and experience, that when you pull back on the stick, you end up stalling your plane (which leads the stall warning to sound); and to recover from a stall, you must push forwards on the stick, which unstalls the plane. After you're out of the stall, after you've recovered by pushing the stick, you expect the stall warning to be silent.

The crew were likely not aware that the stall warning cannot sound under 60kt airspeed, and could not, were not given the opportunity or information to realize that "stall warning NOT sounding" can signify that the plane is in fact, very seriously stalled.

The crew reacted with control inputs to shut that stall warning up, to avoid a stall, because "silent stall warning" is supposed to mean "not stalled". Acting on that stall warning, unaware of its treacherous reversed semantics -- sounding with the stick pushed forwards, and silenced when pulling back -- sent that crew to their doom:

> Until the end of the flight, the angle of attack values changed successively from valid to invalid. Each time that at least one value became valid again, the stall warning re-triggered and each time the angle of attack values were invalid, the warning stopped. Several nose-down inputs caused a drop in the pitch attitude and the angle of attack, whose values then became valid, such that a clear nose-down input resulted in the triggering of the stall warning. It appears that the PF reacted, on at least two occasions, with a nose-up input, whose consequences were an increase in angle of attack, a drop in measured speed and consequently stopping the stall warning. Until the end of the flight, no valid angle of attack value was less than 35°.

There was no AOA instrument on the flight deck either! The computers saw the AOA increase when the pilots pulled the stick back and saw the AOA decrease when the pushed forwards, but the pilots themselves never saw that, because they were not shown a single AOA number/readout. The information they were given that was derived from AOA (the stall warning's status) was completely and fatally misleading; to the point that the pilots never diagnosed a stall:

> The crew never formally identified the stall situation. Information on angle of attack is not directly accessible to pilots. The angle of attack in cruise is close to the stall warning trigger angle of attack in a law other thann normal law. Under these conditions, manual handling can bring the aeroplane to high angles of attack such as those encountered during the event. It is essential in order to ensure flight safety to reduce the angle of attack when a stall is imminent. Only a direct readout of the angle of attack could enable crews to rapidly identify the aerodynamic situation of the aeroplane and take the actions that may be required.

> Consequently, the BEA recommends that EASA and the FAA evaluate the relevance of requiring the presence of an angle of attack indicator directly accessible to pilots on board aeroplanes.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by DanielBMarkham on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @06:24AM (#19366752)
Excellent point.

The aviation industry loves to blame pilots when things go wrong. In most cases they're right, but as systems become more and more incomprehensible, we're expecting far too much of the wetware that most pilots that are humans run.

AF447 was an engineering crash. The collection of systems on that flight deck misrepresented the state of the aircraft to the people flying it. Now you can start equivocating about various subsytems, and in particular each subsystem may have acted in a logical way for good reasons. But the overall system, the collection of subsystems, in my opinion killed those people. With the information the computers had that it knew was valid -- GPS being the primary one -- the plane could have only been in one of two configurations. If there had simply been some way of showing both configurations to the pilots at the same time they would have went level immediately. Instead, because the history of avionics is that each subsystem is either go or no-go, nobody seemed to be responsible for the collection of systems as a whole and how they interacted with people. The idea was just to train the hell out of people and make them responsible. That works extremely well with five mechanical systems with known and transferable failure modes. It's not going to work with 20 electronic systems each of which has had the kiss of technological product development on it.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by zkms on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:36AM (#19367502)
> The collection of systems on that flight deck misrepresented the state of the aircraft to the people flying it.

This is definitely the case. Forcing humans, in an extremely stressful situation, to reverse engineer what different sensors are reading (or if they're broken), what their own control inputs are doing and what the computers are thinking/doing based solely on perhaps-misleading computerized annunciations and observed aircraft behavior doesn't end well.

Critical measurements -- like angle of attack -- must be shown explicitly (a recommendation of the BEA) to the humans and not solely reserved for computer-consumption. Furthermore, there is likely room for better presenting the current state of the sensors that affect the flight control computers, the status of all the automation, and the current flight control laws to reduce the "what is it doing now?" factor that is unfortunately so dominant in these incidents that combine aircraft upsets with system malfunctions, maybe as a synoptic diagram on its own ECAM page -- not crammed onto the PFDs for a pilot actively flying the aircraft.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by DanielBMarkham on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:54AM (#19367610)
It makes me angry. There's a good reason I led my book with off with it as an opening example. https://leanpub.com/info-ops

The plane changed modes and nobody realized it. That amazes me. To have different modes where the controls and indicators do different things and not have that information readily apparent? Ok, this is where you might could use better training. But gee. Like you said, another page on the ECAM would have been fine. You could have put a couple of wooden mechanical airplane models on sticks manipulated by the computer to show the top two best guesses for situation and ended up with something better than what they had.

I think the worst part of that disaster was that aside from engineering/program/integration management, I don't see any particular group of people that were directly at fault. Yet it all came together in a disaster. I find that situation unacceptable.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by foldr on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @12:22PM (#19369831)
>The plane changed modes and nobody realized it

This claim is directly contradicted by the cockpit transcript in the official accident report:

https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/annexe.01...

At 2 h 10 min 22,1, the co-pilot notes that the plane is in alternate law.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by foldr on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:47AM (#19368630)
GPS is not really usable as an indicator of airspeed. It's certainly not precise enough to determine whether or not an airplane is stalled.

The pilots had reliable altitude and attitude information, which is all they needed to determine the configuration of the plane.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by reacweb on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @06:52AM (#19366895)
In general pilots are very smart. In the case of AF447, they were not so good. Airbus and Boeing are building smarter engines to help pilots. This seems like a good idea. The problem is the illusion that a smarter aircraft requires less training for the pilots. IMHO, it is the opposite, when the aircraft is complex, pilots need more training to assimilate all the subtelities of their behaviour.

Recently, I have discussed about the STCA with an ATC. In approach, when aircraft are turning, there are often alerts that are to be ignored. They could easily be filtered out by software, but controllers prefer a simpler and more predictable system even if it causes false alarms. Maybe aircrafts are becoming too smart and pilots not enough trained.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by DanielBMarkham on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @07:46AM (#19367217)
The key moment to me in the AF447 incident was when the pilot woke up.

I understand you can have the junior guy flying. I can even understand the intermittent conditions that could lead to mis-identification of aircraft status. But any system, no matter what's in there, should be able to have the senior person on-board approach it from waking up and understand what the heck is going on. That is a requirement of the overall system.

Could we continue to train our way of more and more complex avionics? Sure. Maybe. How would we ever know that we've reached a point where that's no longer an option? I'm happy with my "sleepy senior pilot" criteria. If that's not it, what is?

It's not unusual for pilots to drift in and out of quasi-consciousness when doing hard aerobatic maneuvers. That usually works fine because there are only so many things to look at. Contrast that to your average GA instrument pilot. There's more stuff. They're taught extensively on partial panel -- but the thing that kills far too often is that pilots suck at figuring out when a system is going bad. It's not flying the airplane. It's trying to figure out what the airplane is telling you.

Anybody that's been doing software for any length of time at all knows that computers can tell you a lot more complicated and nuanced stuff than you can absorb. The pilots and the airplane should never be fighting one another.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by heavenlyblue on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:19AM (#19368327)
It's actually interesting that we're finally reaching a point where types systems in user interfaces are becoming incredibly appropriate.

If we model the stall warning as a boolean variable - then we are not able to signal the user about the fact that the warning system is in fact "inoperable".

On the other hand if the warning system had a state which would say "inoperable", or at it's best return an error - "speed too low", then this warning would never have a state which could be incorrectly interpreted.

This is exactly the same kind of mistake as a difference between NULL pointer and the 0 address you'd encounter while programming.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by aptwebapps on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @07:04AM (#19366960)
How did they get into that situation in the first place - with airspeed at less than 60 kts while at cruise altitude?
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by wazoox on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @09:40AM (#19367998)
By pulling on the stick to gain altitude, to a point where the plane stalls, then falls like a brick, nose up.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by aptwebapps on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:12AM (#19368894)
Right, but why did they do that? The familiar mode above described their inability to get out of the stall due to the misleading alarm pattern. How do you go from cruising to stalling in the first place?
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by carlivar on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @01:53AM (#19365748)
> the pilot’s action of pulling up the nose was an irrational thing to do

Actually the inexperienced COPILOT did this. The pilot realized that was a problem eventually, but too late. And unfortunately the Airbus takes the average of both pilot inputs.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by exidy on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @04:09AM (#19366216)
Conflicting inputs are handled by averaging and an audible "DUAL INPUT" cockpit warning. In the case of AF447, the co-pilot used his "Priority Takeover" button which meant only his control inputs were in effect.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by iforgotpassword on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @04:57AM (#19366398)
The pilot doesn't get a notice in that case? Or was he just like "k what ever"
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by scarletham on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:03AM (#19368791)
There is both a visual and aural indicator. That being said, nobody (except Bonin) knew that the PF had his stick completely back until it was too late.

You can see more here: https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/themes/mh_newsdesk/docume...

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by iforgotpassword on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @02:03PM (#19371135)
That stuff is really interesting, I've been digging through random reports, documents and manuals for two hours now.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by scarletham on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @02:35PM (#19371475)
Yeah, it really is. If you haven't already, check out the full BEA report - it's incredibly comprehensive and leads to lots of "jumping off" points for further research.

https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/f-cp09060...

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by exidy on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:03AM (#19368801)
The plane announces "priority left/right" and the pilot whose input is being ignored gets an indicator on their display.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by learc83 on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @02:01AM (#19365774)
>And unfortunately the Airbus takes the average of both pilot inputs

Really? That's the best way to handle that?

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by nolok on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @03:18AM (#19366034)
From what I read, it's a case of "can't do it the right way originally because of patents/legal/whatever; can't change it to the right way ever since because then every airbus pilot would need to requalify, every book rewritten, etc ...". Sounds like a terrible case of rotten legacy support.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by foldr on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:54AM (#19368703)
A dual input alarm sounds when that happens.

The pilots should never both be trying to apply control inputs at once. There isn't really a good way of handling the situation where the pilots are not communicating and are trying to make conflicting control inputs.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by carlivar on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @02:19AM (#19365837)
Since I read that Popular Mechanics article, I think the exact same thing every time I board an Airbus plane.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by richardhod on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @06:29AM (#19377380)
Airbus has since updated its flight control feedback systems
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by foldr on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @07:46AM (#19377727)
Source for this?
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by richardhod on Thursday March 14, 2019 @11:06AM (#19389859)
I may be mistaken; I had thought I had read that Airbus had acted, but on checking up, I think not in ways which would make my brief implication useful.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by weaksauce on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @07:03AM (#19366954)
Iirc the problem was an iced pito tube that gave unreliable airspeed coupled with operating in a different reality (mode of flight control per airbus) coupled with differing inputs from both pilots coupled with the fact that the stall warning was disengaged below a certain airspeed. All too often these crashes are not one single cause but a series of unfortunate events.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by js2 on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @02:12AM (#19365813)
After I read about that I was nervous flying on Airbus for a long time. My understanding is that on Boeing the two yokes are linked so it would be impossible for one pilot to nose up without the other having his yoke move too.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by neuronic on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @05:41AM (#19366569)
So it becomes a power struggle and assuming roughly equal strength of both pilots, we are still averaging ...
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by sokoloff on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @06:03AM (#19366656)
If that were the only factor, yes. The mechanical linkage though can help each pilot understand and discuss the actual inputs the plane is receiving, as well as being consistent with all the aircraft that they flew in primary civilian training.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by thedrbrian on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:58AM (#19368747)
If there’s a 40lb(iirc) difference in force inputs the rod linking the two columns breaks, at which point you should figure out what you’re doing.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by refurb on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @08:58AM (#19367632)
Yes, but at least that gives a signal to each pilot what the other is doing.

It wasn’t until a few minutes before Air France’s crashed that the pilot realized what the copilot was doing.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by foldr on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @10:54AM (#19368712)
>It wasn’t until a few minutes before Air France’s crashed that the pilot realized what the copilot was doing.

This is not true. See e.g.

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=772033&start=...

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by refurb on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @11:47AM (#19369316)
2 minutes between captain returning to cockpit before he realizes the problem.[1]

02:11:43 (Captain) What the hell are you doing? [captain returns to cockpit]

02:13:40 (Bonin) But I've had the stick back the whole time! [At last, Bonin tells the others the crucial fact whose import he has so grievously failed to understand himself.]

02:14:29 - recording stops

[1]https://www.tailstrike.com/010609.html

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by foldr on Tuesday March 12, 2019 @12:04PM (#19369562)
These are all descendants of the original popular mechanics article, which I don't think is a reliable source. The actual accident report is available to look at now (https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/f-cp09060...). The transcript is in an appendix: https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/annexe.01...

Note that at the point of the transcript you're referencing, the captain was in the cockpit but not seated at the controls. It therefore would make no difference to his awareness of the situation whether or not the control sticks were linked, as he wasn't holding either of the sticks.

Unlike the captain, the PNF and PF (who were seated at the controls) both seem to have thought that they needed to climb. See 2 h 13 min 39,7 and 2 h 13 min 40,6.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by refurb on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @12:59AM (#19375870)
Of course the official accident report is a better source, but I’m not arguing linked controls would have helped. Just that it took the captain a few minutes to grasp the situation.
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by richardhod on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @06:32AM (#19377400)
The senior copilot was in the other seat, and the problem was that the unlinked controls meant that the senior co-pilot did not know during the previous 10 minutes what the junior Copilot Bonin, who had the controls, was doing, and that his (senior copilot) input to put the nose down was doing nothing
Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by foldr on Wednesday March 13, 2019 @07:14AM (#19377589)
As I said:

Unlike the captain, the PNF and PF (who were seated at the controls) both seem to have thought that they needed to climb. See 2 h 13 min 39,7 and 2 h 13 min 40,6.

There's also evidence from the rest of the transcript that the pilots at the controls were perfectly capable of observing (or inferring) which inputs were being made.

I think there's an underling misconception here that an Airbus sidestack has a "position" akin to the position of the yoke of a plane with fully manual controls. An Airbus is flown with the sidestick remaining in its central position 99% of the time. To climb, for example, the pilot makes a short backward movement and then lets the stick return to its neutral position. The flight control software will maintain the specified climb until another stick input is made. For this reason, stick inputs tell you very little. If, for example, you see the PF push the stick forward, that doesn't necessarily mean that the plane's being put into a dive. The PF might just be reducing the rate of climb. You'd have to keep track of the complete history of stick inputs to know what was going on.

On top of that, as only one pilot has their hands on the stick at any given time, for the PNF to visually observe brief movements of their own sidestick would hardly be any easier for them than just looking at the sidestick of the PF, who's right next to them.

Re:What is the Boeing 737 Max Manoeuvring Characteristics Au... by richardhod on Thursday March 14, 2019 @11:18AM (#19389978)
At 2h 10m the PNF (copilot in the left seat) warns the guy on the right about speed and says he needs to go back down. I believe that this is where the issue is, where he doesn't realise that the guy on teh right is still trying to climb. I think this is something I also read in the article, and it's good to see it in the logs (thanks for posting them)