Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by monk_e_boy on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:22PM
(#19354596)
Her issues with the English are founded and interesting. But we all feel like that. Our history is complex and bloody, you go to any part of the UK and the people there feel the same way, why are we the butt of jokes? Why do they not care about our history and oppression (the North, Scotland, Cornwall, Wales, any rural part of the UK). While Londoners drone on about London.
Brexit and the Irish border is almost impossible to solve. The talk has been endless, with what? An hour a day on Radio 4 for the past 3 or 4 years. It is complex. It is miles and miles away in a land 99% of us have never been to and can't help with a coherent answer. A hard border is madness. A soft border leaves a gaping hole in the EUs borders. A backstop means Northern Ireland are running a separate legal system to the rest of the UK, and we still have the issue of some sort of border somewhere ... in the UK ports? How many harbours and ports are there that are capable of getting a boat to Ireland? Hundreds?
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by monk_e_boy on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:40PM
(#19354729)
Of course. You are not the first person to suggest it (sorry to burst your bubble) ... I expect there will be a second referendum. Whether we have 'remain' as an option ... that remains to be seen.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by DyslexicAtheist on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:29PM
(#19354662)
> Brexit and the Irish border is almost impossible to solve.
the solution would be to kick the illegal English occupants off the island of Ireland. also what gets labeled as terrorist in one country is called a freedom fighter in another. The Kurds are a great example of that too.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by DyslexicAtheist on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:59PM
(#19354863)
see my other comment. I'm speaking of English occupants who as a minority identify as English and want NI to remain English (e.g. a divided Ireland).
Sorry I couldn't give a rats arse about hypocrite laws that the US enforces on ther countries.
Unlike others here I've lived in conflict zones for 20+ years, and am not an armchair philosopher like most of you who think just because they have an Internet connection it makes them an authority on all sorts of subjects.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by monk_e_boy on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:39PM
(#19354718)
That's just silly. 2 million people?
People have been moving to and from Ireland and Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK forever. Drawing imaginary lines and labelling people is silly, but asking families move out of their homes? We may as well say the same for non-native Americans ... again such a silly idea that it may as well come from a pre-school student.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by DyslexicAtheist on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:51PM
(#19354804)
why would it be silly? everyone gets an Irish passport and the radical minority that identifies that strongly as English should fuck off to England.
bombs are a valid means to protect your country from an illegal occupant. if the English don't get that maybe it's time for the N/IRA (whatever is left of it seems to be already in the process of recovering) to bring the war to London again in the way they did in the 80ies. I see no problem in that though would obviously prefer the English gave up NI voluntarily.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by jacobush on Sunday March 10, 2019 @06:15PM
(#19354979)
Wait, you propose to give everyone, even "English" an Irish passport? That's reasonable.
However, the chances of England giving up NI are about 0%. The chances of IRA winning a war is also about 0%. I hope the IRA won't start up again, it would mean a slow never-ending cycle of death, again.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by jonathanhd on Sunday March 10, 2019 @06:31PM
(#19355086)
Allowing everyone born in Northern Ireland, and everyone with an Irish grandparent anywhere, to claim an Irish passport is already standard policy and has been since partition.
> It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland.
> Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, who does not have, at the time of the birth of that person, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by kristianc on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:37PM
(#19354706)
> Crucial questions about how to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic — a border abolished in the Good Friday Agreement, the reintroduction of which would be inextricably associated with the preceding decades of violence and unrest — remain unresolved, months before Brexit is slated to become official.
It's interesting how this has taken hold and is not really questioned. There has in fact never been (apart from a brief period in World War II) a border requiring a passport between Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Neither did the Good Friday agreement 'abolish' the customs border in any meaningful way. The Good Friday argument has very little to say on the subject of borders in fact - the customs barriers that there were on the island were in fact abolished in 1993 as part of the common market reforms.
Given that all sides have committed not to re-establish a hard border even in the event of a no deal, it's difficult to see how it would threaten the peace process to the extent that is being made out.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by switch007 on Sunday March 10, 2019 @06:00PM
(#19354871)
> Given that all sides have committed not to re-establish a hard border even in the event of a no deal, it's difficult to see how it would threaten the peace process to the extent that is being made out.
I'm rather ignorant of the situation so I ask sincerely: Theresa May might have made a "commitment" and stated that she's "determined" not to see a hard border but how is she going to do it? I'm guessing the EU's & the UK's red lines plus Parliament rejecting her deal are a bit of a spanner in the works? If she doesn't have a credible plan, you'd forgive people for being worried about a hard border, surely?
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by kristianc on Sunday March 10, 2019 @07:43PM
(#19355515)
The EU have committed to Ireland, and the Irish government themselves have committed that there wouldn’t be a hard border. The U.K. government has also committed not to build one. It’s not just the U.K. that has committed not to build one - it’s all parties involved in this that have committed not to build one.
In addition, there are other borders between EU and non-EU countries that don’t require immigration controls. It’s hard to see why one is necessary - other than if the EU was deliberately setting out to make leaving look as difficult as possible.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by mjfl on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:21PM
(#19354593)
As an American of Irish heritage - my family until very recently lived in an Irish American community in South Boston for generations - I can't stress enough how little I share these feelings. I know I'm not "Irish", but my life is presumably a consequence of the same decisions that the author is upset about. It seems that the author is using historical events to justify political resentments that are very current and very local. To me that is unhealthy.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by afandian on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:37PM
(#19354708)
With respect I suggest that this comment is borne of a similar lack of familiarity that 'the English' are acccused of in the article.
As an English person in England I can only agree. The lack of knowledge about the situation in Ireland, current and historical, is abysmal. I doubt many young people even know about the bombings in their own country, let alone what led to it.
The question of the border in Ireland and what will happen when the UK leaves the EU has been kicked around as political football with very little regard given to the human consequences. Politicians have taken their cue from public apathy and committed some really egregious intellectual dishonesties.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by kristianc on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:48PM
(#19354785)
> It seems that the author is using historical events to justify political resentments that are very current and very local.
There have also been very real consequences of that lingering political resentment. For years, Irish Americans from Boston and NY were the primary source of funding for the Irish Republican bombing campaign in Britain.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by peisistratos on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:32PM
(#19354684)
> using historical events to justify political resentments that are very current and very local
There is no lack of continuity though. In 1609 the English stole land from Irish people during the plantation of Ulster. In 2019, the six counties vote to stay in the EU, but the Monarch's parliament across the sea decides otherwise. A garrison of the occupation troops remain in the Thiepval barracks.
Six county Brexit (against the will of six county voters) and the Thiepval barracks are a sign of a continuity that is very current but unfortunately not very local.
Re:I Didn’t Hate the English – Until Now (2018)
by jacobush on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:34PM
(#19354695)
It's not about your life being the consequences. It's about you not as soon as you moved out of South Boston being the butt of jokes etc.
And the Troubles are much nearer in time than the famine. There is a continuity of conflict you haven't had in South Boston compared to what was going on in Ireland.
(Besides, not wanting to single you out, but I'm sure we could find many prevalent unhealthy resentments present in Americans in general, rooted in historical events.)
Brexit and the Irish border is almost impossible to solve. The talk has been endless, with what? An hour a day on Radio 4 for the past 3 or 4 years. It is complex. It is miles and miles away in a land 99% of us have never been to and can't help with a coherent answer. A hard border is madness. A soft border leaves a gaping hole in the EUs borders. A backstop means Northern Ireland are running a separate legal system to the rest of the UK, and we still have the issue of some sort of border somewhere ... in the UK ports? How many harbours and ports are there that are capable of getting a boat to Ireland? Hundreds?
One way it could be solved is for the UK to stay in the EU. Then no hard border would be needed. I wonder if they actually considered that in London.
the solution would be to kick the illegal English occupants off the island of Ireland. also what gets labeled as terrorist in one country is called a freedom fighter in another. The Kurds are a great example of that too.
Also, have you read The Terrorism Act 2006, lately?
Sorry I couldn't give a rats arse about hypocrite laws that the US enforces on ther countries.
Unlike others here I've lived in conflict zones for 20+ years, and am not an armchair philosopher like most of you who think just because they have an Internet connection it makes them an authority on all sorts of subjects.
People have been moving to and from Ireland and Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK forever. Drawing imaginary lines and labelling people is silly, but asking families move out of their homes? We may as well say the same for non-native Americans ... again such a silly idea that it may as well come from a pre-school student.
bombs are a valid means to protect your country from an illegal occupant. if the English don't get that maybe it's time for the N/IRA (whatever is left of it seems to be already in the process of recovering) to bring the war to London again in the way they did in the 80ies. I see no problem in that though would obviously prefer the English gave up NI voluntarily.
However, the chances of England giving up NI are about 0%. The chances of IRA winning a war is also about 0%. I hope the IRA won't start up again, it would mean a slow never-ending cycle of death, again.
> It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland.
> Notwithstanding any other provision of this Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, who does not have, at the time of the birth of that person, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless provided for by law.
It's interesting how this has taken hold and is not really questioned. There has in fact never been (apart from a brief period in World War II) a border requiring a passport between Ireland and Northern Ireland.
Neither did the Good Friday agreement 'abolish' the customs border in any meaningful way. The Good Friday argument has very little to say on the subject of borders in fact - the customs barriers that there were on the island were in fact abolished in 1993 as part of the common market reforms.
Given that all sides have committed not to re-establish a hard border even in the event of a no deal, it's difficult to see how it would threaten the peace process to the extent that is being made out.
I'm rather ignorant of the situation so I ask sincerely: Theresa May might have made a "commitment" and stated that she's "determined" not to see a hard border but how is she going to do it? I'm guessing the EU's & the UK's red lines plus Parliament rejecting her deal are a bit of a spanner in the works? If she doesn't have a credible plan, you'd forgive people for being worried about a hard border, surely?
In addition, there are other borders between EU and non-EU countries that don’t require immigration controls. It’s hard to see why one is necessary - other than if the EU was deliberately setting out to make leaving look as difficult as possible.
As an English person in England I can only agree. The lack of knowledge about the situation in Ireland, current and historical, is abysmal. I doubt many young people even know about the bombings in their own country, let alone what led to it.
The question of the border in Ireland and what will happen when the UK leaves the EU has been kicked around as political football with very little regard given to the human consequences. Politicians have taken their cue from public apathy and committed some really egregious intellectual dishonesties.
It's all so shameful.
There have also been very real consequences of that lingering political resentment. For years, Irish Americans from Boston and NY were the primary source of funding for the Irish Republican bombing campaign in Britain.
[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08...
There is no lack of continuity though. In 1609 the English stole land from Irish people during the plantation of Ulster. In 2019, the six counties vote to stay in the EU, but the Monarch's parliament across the sea decides otherwise. A garrison of the occupation troops remain in the Thiepval barracks.
Six county Brexit (against the will of six county voters) and the Thiepval barracks are a sign of a continuity that is very current but unfortunately not very local.
And the Troubles are much nearer in time than the famine. There is a continuity of conflict you haven't had in South Boston compared to what was going on in Ireland.
(Besides, not wanting to single you out, but I'm sure we could find many prevalent unhealthy resentments present in Americans in general, rooted in historical events.)