News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by hnhg on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:14AM (#19351127)
Yeah but a large and valid function of luxury goods is wealth signalling. You might find this lamentable but it has practical social utility.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by sametmax on Sunday March 10, 2019 @09:25AM (#19351880)
Custom tailor clothes is very high signaling: either you have the education to notice, and hence you will give points to the person for having taste, or you won't, but the perfect cut will make it's effect anyway.

Branding is the opposite of signaling for anybody with a bit of money, or somebody who has been educated in an environnent filled with art and science.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by hnhg on Sunday March 10, 2019 @01:38PM (#19353091)
It depends on who you're speaking to. Old vs new money, etc.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by spectramax on Sunday March 10, 2019 @02:35PM (#19353464)
Can you elaborate what new and old money means?

In my view, status symbols and signals exist at each wealth tier, i.e. from lower class, middle class and the bourgeoisie, to the upper extreme of billionaires.

Brand name and brand recognition persists not only in vertical hierarchy but also in horizontal sub cultures within the same wealth class (e.g. Supreme which has its roots in SB culture).

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by sametmax on Sunday March 10, 2019 @02:51PM (#19353595)
The old european rich families will never wear anything with a logo. But the daughter of an emirate family that got rich during the last century may travel with 20 suit cases with logos on them.

This is still value signaling for both. It's just that when 20 generations lived in castles, showing off money is considered bad taste and uneducated.

In fact, a typical signal is having expensive things, but not caring that you have them. Some do that by not showing them off. Others displays that by showing them off, but treating it like it is disposable.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by Tsiklon on Monday March 11, 2019 @08:36AM (#19358452)
From what I understand of the matter, in terms of a generalised distinction the two differ on how they signal their wealth and their behaviour amongst peers.

Old money is wealth that has been sustained through several generations - Traditional aristocracy, and families who own classically successful businesses going back hundreds of years those would be the sort of people who one would describe as old money.

The wealth signalling these families and people display are items that tend to be less "showy" or overt. The perception of a quality or well made item is more important than the brand name behind it.

New money is wealth that has accumulated within a generation or two from families who are not traditionally wealthy - Tech Millionaires, Arabian Oil Barons, Russian Oligarchs and the like would all come under this heading.

The wealth signalling by New Money tends to be more overt than with old money - there can be the perception that the items they purchase and flaunt around are to signal that indeed they have money and are willing to spend it. one could even argue it's as if to prove a point

a classic exploration on the conflict of Old Money vs New Money is in the novel The Great Gatsby.

see also the term Nouveau Riche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouveau_riche

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by 0815test on Monday March 11, 2019 @08:44AM (#19358498)
There's a big selection effect, I would imagine - if you are "old money" and start doing the kind of flouting your wealth that "new money" folks would do, pretty soon you won't be "old money" anymore.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by BenMorganIO on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:35PM (#19354696)
I'm not sure about that. Each time I see someone with those things I tend to assume they're in debt than in credit. My gf's dad complains about his debt then spends his money on Bose sound and yells at his kids for taking up all the money.

I really just straight up don't trust people who value these and I also don't feel like making a human connection to them either. If I see someone in a bespoke suit and wearing it properly, I nod my head.

It feels almost like seeing a good beard. You wouldn't buy a Gucci beard to be put on like a fake mustache. You'd have to groom it and take care of it on your own for months. Apologies for the odd comparison but it's needed to add a deeper contrast.

"Luxury" goods shouldn't be a sign of status as they're often toxic. Buy what you think actually does the job and solves the problem.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by warp_factor on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:41AM (#19351199)
yes, everything is signaling. If you get a brandless tshirt, you are also signaling that you are too smart to buy the luxury brand.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by selune on Sunday March 10, 2019 @06:54AM (#19351409)
Everyone above some margin of income indulges in a consumption of luxury goods. I don't see how wearing a cheap t-shirt but driving a good car or playing Playstation sitting on a comfy expensive couch is smarter than buying a pair of expensive sneakers.

It's just signalling to your crowd.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by function_seven on Sunday March 10, 2019 @07:35AM (#19351521)
Form and Function.

If I can find clothing that functions just as well as logo'd versions, but for less money, then that makes sense.

With cars, gaming consoles, etc., there's a valid reason to want to spend more money if you're looking for function. PlayStation has games that you can't find on other consoles, or maybe you just like the controller better.

The car I drive is more expensive than I need, but I didn't spend the money to signal anything to anyone. I bought it because it has features the alternative doesn't.

If those expensive sneakers do their job better, then great. But if you're dropping $500 on a limited edition, just for the design, then it's a different calculation. (I am NOT saying it's stupid to do this, just differentiating it from buying features vs. design)

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by selune on Sunday March 10, 2019 @07:46AM (#19351567)
Clothes have aesthetics function. I love my Chloe dresses, how they made, how they look and feel aka they make me happy. I'm yet to find similar dresses in mass market or even just in other brands.

Most people who buy expensive clothing are actually doing it as a hobby, esp those that are being talked about in the article - people who are heavily invested in influences and celebrity culture, they find luxury to be fun and it allows them to hang out in circles of people with similar interests. So it does fulfill functions: aesthetic, social, entertainment etc.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by chrisan on Sunday March 10, 2019 @07:49AM (#19351573)
> I bought it because it has features the alternative doesn't.

How do we know that you aren't signaling you want that brand? You are just some dude in a Ford, who for all we know is signaling you want a Ford over a Chevy

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by function_seven on Sunday March 10, 2019 @08:14AM (#19351637)
I guess you just have to trust me. And, trust me, this car if anything signals that I’m boring as shit. The color is bland and styling is okay. I spent the money for the power seats and the extra room in the back.

Funny enough, it is a Ford, though I’ve also owned Chevys in the past.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by mynameishere on Sunday March 10, 2019 @08:03AM (#19351604)
I bought it because it has features the alternative doesn't.

You don't provide enough details here, but there's a good chance you aren't talking about the feature differences between a 1986 Toyota Tercel and a 2019 Camry. You are probably talking about the difference between your 40,000 or 50,000 (or more) dollar car and a typical 30,000 dollar car. If that's the case, it's probably worth pointing out while you criticize T-Shirt buyers, that you got horribly rooked. Rooked bad. Like, you're just a fat whale to the auto industry.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by function_seven on Sunday March 10, 2019 @08:15AM (#19351642)
My car cost me $14,500. I could have spent $9k and gotten similar utility (though not as nice)
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by jidue on Sunday March 10, 2019 @07:31AM (#19351511)
Today its less necessary and inefficient.

Once upon a time the costumes of head of state, judges, generals and priests required all kinds of peacock level signalling.

The illiterate masses needed the signals. Especially where authority figures were concerned.

Today we are at a point were a CEO can walk into a meeting in shorts and people have the capacity to understand who has more decision making power.

Are General's and Judges going to stop wearing their costumes? In large parts of the west much of it has disappeared. Not yet fully because when your job is to get people to do stuff that has nothing to do with their own needs distractions work.

As more and more people get in touch with their own needs the power of distraction and manipulative signals will reduce. We are seeing this push back happening all over the place.

In the past both the education system and professional hierarchies at work did a fantastic job of disconnecting people from their own needs to produce obedience.

Today thanks to hyper-connection of the internet, the hierarchies are bypassed, and people are getting slapped in the face, a hundred ways, reminding them to think about their own needs.

This is a new thing. It goes wrong a lot and produces bad outcomes but people are learning. And the learning is very different from the past. Because it comes through a network not from a hierarchy.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by selune on Sunday March 10, 2019 @08:27AM (#19351671)
But is CEO going to live in a cheap apartment in a bad hood or entertain themselves via playing rocks they found on a street?

I'm all for controlling our inner consumerism but I often find tremendous lack of self-awareness in the discourse. Nobody says MTG fans are "not clever" or shallow or manipulated by the system because they have an expensive hobby. Tourism, cars, good houses, good furniture, art, videogames, eating out, going to concerts, collecting vinyls, having pets - are all absolutely unnecessary for humans and can be considered as luxury from point of view of those who cannot afford these things.

People buy and do stuff because they like it and can afford it and that's it. You're not more enlightened or clever for not doing one unnecessary thing but doing some other.

I don't ever eat in restaurants/cafes and don't have a car. I'm not smarter than majority of Americans, I'm just really shy and don't mind using public transport, so these things are inefficient for me, but they might be efficient in providing some entertainment, comfort, novelty experience, social signalling for those with different preferences.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by ghaff on Sunday March 10, 2019 @08:51AM (#19351729)
A lot of people get up on their high horse because others spend money on things they consider frivolous and unnecessary.

I don't read too much into changing clothing styles. Suits and ties were starting to be de-emphasized in day-to-day business quite a while before social media was a thing. (Casual Fridays started in the early 90s or so.) And the sort of inverse snobbery hoodie dress thing is mostly limited to some tech circles.

For that matter, there are still a lot of suits and ties worn in business meetings even if they're not near-universal dress any longer.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by gubbrora on Sunday March 10, 2019 @04:12PM (#19354127)
>Once upon a time the costumes of head of state, judges, generals and priests required all kinds of peacock level signalling.

>The illiterate masses needed the signals. Especially where authority figures were concerned.

It's not that we don't need the signals anymore. We do. But the signals have been debased. Anyone can get any costume. So the signal doesn't signal anything anymore and it's not worth bothering.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by ahakki on Sunday March 10, 2019 @09:40AM (#19351938)
> Are General's and Judges

Last time I was in court in court the judge was wearing just a casual floral top, summer skirt and flats, it was a small civil case, and no one minded at all. It was still clear that she was in charge.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by mythrwy on Sunday March 10, 2019 @02:50PM (#19353589)
Trying to have an outside perspective, the black robes do seem pretty silly in this day and age.

But not nearly as silly as the powdered wigs I think are still in use in Britain and other parts Europe which seem downright ludicrous.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by sridca on Sunday March 10, 2019 @02:18PM (#19353337)
> yes, everything is signaling.

Cynical observation. Not every human action is automatically designed to impress upon others.

> If you get a brandless tshirt, you are also signaling that you are too smart to buy the luxury brand.

As a matter of fact I buy "brandless" shirts -- actually I own about four black woolen shirts from Costco. It is simply a fact of the matter that a) I am smart enough not to fall for luxury brand marketting, and b) I prefer not to have to choose which 'design' of shirt to wear every day.

A fact is just so; it does not need to be signalled. I perfectly understand that some people value fashion more in line with their values. To each their own.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by Erlich_Bachman on Monday March 11, 2019 @06:17AM (#19357843)
> Cynical observation. Not every human action is automatically designed to impress upon others.

That is not what the word signalling means.

Signalling is a means of communication. Singalling is much more efficient in many contexts than other communications methods like straight up talking and describing one's life.

Communication has many reasons for it, only one of which (quite minor for many people) is "impressing upon others". Saying signalling is done for "impressing upon others" is a gross simplification of this phenomenon and is just inaccurate.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by saghm on Sunday March 10, 2019 @02:51PM (#19353601)
Or maybe you just don't care what others think about what you wear and just go with what's cheaper, which is generally the brandless clothing
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by hnhg on Sunday March 10, 2019 @06:42AM (#19351370)
To some audiences, yes
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by humanrebar on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:36AM (#19351177)
That's why you get your custom shirt monogrammed. Bespoke and conspicuous, at least to the people you're signalling to.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by anovikov on Sunday March 10, 2019 @06:26AM (#19351322)
Thing is, it still is. Haute couture doesn't have any labels and yet it does whole lot of wealth signaling. It's just... it takes some real wealth.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by hnhg on Sunday March 10, 2019 @06:43AM (#19351374)
Yes, but only certain audiences recognise it.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by danielahn on Sunday March 10, 2019 @11:37AM (#19352390)
To emphasize the point on the value of signaling - I know plenty of people who actively avoid branded items that could easily fit into their budgets because they think it's ridiculous to pay the premium - this is also signaling, especially if you belong to a tribe that knows you have that sort of money. Gets lost in the mental calculus of why a person buys a certain good (value, function, etc.), but as another commenter pointed out, luxury designer brands often fit better which makes the wearer look better, and the decision is rarely just about about which item provides more value for the 'cover a part of your body' use.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by devit on Sunday March 10, 2019 @07:18AM (#19351471)
In the case of logos, it also signals that you are attempting to signal "wealth" (more appropriately, a somewhat elevated clothing budget), which is generally detrimental.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by _0nac on Sunday March 10, 2019 @07:27AM (#19351502)
People who don't signal wealth tend to like to think so, but it's been fairly exhaustively demonstrated that signaling wealth with visibly branded clothing does get you better treatment in all sorts of things, including job interviews.

https://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/10/wearing-expensive-brands-of-...

And yes, in some circles ostentatious signaling will be counterproductive, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by scottlocklin on Sunday March 10, 2019 @11:50AM (#19352444)
Mind you that's a study done in South Korea, a place where Burberry and Louis Vuitton have weird meanings and status they don't elsewhere. One of the amusing things about this conversation is that overtly branded items (Vuitton, Burberry, Rolex) are really big in Asian countries in a way they simply aren't anywhere else.

I had a South Korean physics colleague whose wife bought him some preposterously expensive Louis Vuitton organizer (basically a $2000 leather folder) when he got his Ph.D. He looked ... out of place with it around the physics department, where most of the people just dressed like nerds, or had tweed sports coats or whatever, but you could tell it was a big deal to both of them.

It's interesting the success/taste/status signals used by different social groups. Sales guys and lawyers often use shoes and watches for such things; a bit more subtle than a bag with branding logo all over, but serves the same purpose.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by spectramax on Sunday March 10, 2019 @02:40PM (#19353503)
I totally agree having spent 300 days in last 5 years in Asia. Mostly, South Korea, China, Vietnam, Malaysia, and Japan.

Luxury brands in every aspect of life dominate in Asia. Indie/Hipster/Craft cultures are also coming up but they are not viewed as a threat.

It turns out that money can’t buy you taste.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by ghaff on Sunday March 10, 2019 @04:05PM (#19354093)
You get a sense for it in Vegas too, which gets a lot of business from that area of the world (as well as Middle East, etc.) There are whole shopping malls where I doubt there's a single item I'd consider buying.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by beatgammit on Sunday March 10, 2019 @09:25AM (#19351883)
Yes, I've heard that tasteful wealth signaling implies that you're successful enough to do so, and if you're a bit over the top, you likely need the job more than someone who is a bit more reserved, so you may work harder.

Basically, fake the til you make it and dress for the part and whatnot.

However, each position and manager are different, so there are very few hard and fast rules. What works great for one person may have the opposite effect on another. Honestly, I don't care too much about my physical appearance (I guess that's signaling too), so I've been looking into other nonverbal ways to communicate since I hate trying to adapt to the latest fashion (it's exhausting, and my time is better spent building stuff).

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by ghaff on Sunday March 10, 2019 @09:48AM (#19351968)
It used to be easy. You wore a suit to a professional job interview. End of story. End of discussion. Today, I assume that there are more than a few people in tech making hiring decisions who would flag that as "not a cultural fit."
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by lazerwalker on Sunday March 10, 2019 @11:33AM (#19352366)
Well, "easy" for men who could afford a suit that passed the "good enough" bar.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by selune on Sunday March 10, 2019 @11:37AM (#19352389)
It's not like all wealthy people are some homogeneous entity where everybody dresses the same, looks the same, does the same business, spends their time in the same way and shares the same lifestyle, values and ambitions. Granted, I know a lot more about women's high fashion and the culture that surrounds it than about men's fashion and business culture but as a crude example: someone who's wearing stuff like D&G and Versace and someone who's wearing Yohji Yamamoto and Comme des Garçons are probably people with drastically different interests, professions, circles, values etc. Think conventionally glamorous vs avant-garde artsy crowd.

Everything largely depends on a particular circle, industry, level of income. Arab Sheikhs don't party with CEOs from Valley, Russian oligarchs or Hollywood producers. I believe how you're expected to dress for 300k position in Facebook would differ from the expected look for 300k position on Wall Street.

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by retrac98 on Sunday March 10, 2019 @09:41AM (#19351946)
This is important for people to understand.

In business, an expensive watch signals to others that you’re good at what you do. Not necessarily that you’re a flashy asshole, although for some that can be the case too!

Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by 908087 on Sunday March 10, 2019 @11:53AM (#19352462)
Most of the people I encounter who go out of their way to "signal wealth" are only wealthy if you consider massive debt a form of wealth.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by dschuetz on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:43AM (#19351203)
What might that "practical social utility" be?
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by selune on Sunday March 10, 2019 @05:51AM (#19351228)
To be able to easily recognize people you want to hang out with? People do tend to gravitate toward people of the same economic class.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by threatofrain on Sunday March 10, 2019 @07:14AM (#19351458)
To at least show you're of the class that can afford such things. That allows you to not be judged.
Re:The head of luxury at Facebook and Instagram by mud_dauber on Sunday March 10, 2019 @10:40AM (#19352160)
Knowing whether that person will pick up the check :-)