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Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by balabaster on Thursday March 07, 2019 @01:23PM (#19330591)
Republicans can only remain in power if people continue to vote them into office... so there has to be some pretense or the will of the people will cease to support them.

Any party is only as effective as the numbers of people they have in office.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by bduerst on Thursday March 07, 2019 @01:37PM (#19330745)
- Not if they can cling to power through gerrymandering: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/29/us/politics/n...

- Not if they can strip the powers of positions that they have lost: https://www.apnews.com/62c976c13a574fa7a8cbb2aa4de425da

- Not if they have a propaganda media outlet that misinforms voters: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/03/11/the-making-of-...

The cronysm and party-before-country behavior of the republican party is a threat to the democracy of the nation.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by ctlby on Thursday March 07, 2019 @01:51PM (#19330911)
Do you genuinely believe these things explain >1% of Republican electoral success? If so, can you explain your thinking?
Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by hannasanarion on Thursday March 07, 2019 @02:01PM (#19331018)
North Carolina is gerrymandered so that Republicans reliably win 77% of the seats despite getting only 49% of the votes, that's 2% of the House of Representatives right there.
Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by ctlby on Thursday March 07, 2019 @02:11PM (#19331121)
The House of Representatives is currently in Democratic hands, so the system there would appear to be working as intended.

Meanwhile, the Senate and the Presidency are controlled by Republicans, and gerrymandering is utterly irrelevant to those outcomes.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by InitialLastName on Thursday March 07, 2019 @02:37PM (#19331414)
> gerrymandering is utterly irrelevant to those outcomes.

You're correct that at the first order gerrymandering is irrelevant to the Senate and Presidency. Gerrymandering comes into play as a second-order effect, though; when used at the state level, it can cause state legislatures to effectively lock to a party. These state legislatures can then make changes to the way voting is organized in their state, enfranchising and disenfranchising voters in ways that support their party, and funding/defunding polling districts per the same. This has an effect that can be plenty large enough to swing statewide elections: see the last election's shenanigans in South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida if you're in doubt.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by ctlby on Thursday March 07, 2019 @03:06PM (#19331760)
I cannot overstate my doubts enough. Can you point me to evidence (aside from Stacey Abrams' sour grapes) that this swung an election?
Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by hannasanarion on Thursday March 07, 2019 @03:29PM (#19332014)
The Democrats won the largest popular vote margin of any party in American history in 2018, but only the 53rd largest congressional majority in history, mostly because of Democratic voters in North Carolina, Ohio, and Wisconsin who were "packed and cracked" so that their votes counted far less.
Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by ctlby on Thursday March 07, 2019 @04:22PM (#19332605)
Suppose they had in fact won the largest House majority in history. What exactly would it change? How would NN be faring right now? Moral grandstanding aside, I don't see the relevance of any of this.
Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by hannasanarion on Thursday March 07, 2019 @09:43PM (#19334675)
The relevance to this is that you asserted that Republicans haven't given themselves any electoral advantage at all or that, if they did, it accounted for less than 1% of their success, when that cannot be further from the truth.

You said "explain your reasoning", and that's what I did.

No need to get defensive over it and try to pretend like it's irrelevant to the discussion. This is literally the discussion you explicitly asked for. If you don't like the fact that the Republican party has acted in a decades-long effort to guarantee their own power in perpetuity with or without public support, don't get mad at me, get mad at them.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by ctlby on Friday March 08, 2019 @12:22AM (#19335320)
I’m not mad at anyone, you simply haven’t explained anything. You just keep repeating the standard litany of Republican sins.

I never disputed Republicans’ attempt to give themselves an electoral advantage. I just disagree that this is consequential, much less decisive. As you yourself argued elsewhere in the thread, NC Republicans’ chicanery could mean a 2% swing in the House. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you’re telling me that by attributing 100% of R success to trickery, in a state that’s the worst of the worst in this regard and so yields the biggest effect size, you can create a counterfactual where Democrats have 2% more seats in just one half of Congress?

Your smoking gun is a rounding error. So I’m asking again: how do these sorts of numbers lead you to believe what you apparently believe?

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by tangent128 on Thursday March 07, 2019 @05:25PM (#19333185)
Gerrymandering is utterly irrelevant to the Senate and the Presidency... in the sense that, if you lift the restriction for representative districts to have comparable populations, the resulting distortions of the popular will no longer count as mere "gerrymandering".
Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by bduerst on Thursday March 07, 2019 @02:32PM (#19331351)
You asked how "these things explain >1% of Republican electoral success", but have now moved the goalposts to "It's still not enough to control the entire house".
Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by ctlby on Thursday March 07, 2019 @03:05PM (#19331749)
I'm really not trying to move the goalposts. It just seems weird to use the House to argue about the incredible effectiveness of the Republican's underhanded tactics--when they don't even control the one body where those tactics should help!

In any event, the House sits beside the Senate and the Executive. As another commenter pointed out, this case at best explains ~2% of the dynamics of one out of three legislative bodies offices. And sure, other states might contribute a bit more. Fine, maybe it clears my 1% threshold; but just barely.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by bduerst on Thursday March 07, 2019 @03:23PM (#19331953)
You did though, and when faced with the evidence you shifted the burden of proof to maintain your opinion that gerrymandering by Republicans isn't a problem. The fact you continue to minimize it and ignore the other problematic Republican behavior shows confirmation bias.
Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by ctlby on Thursday March 07, 2019 @04:18PM (#19332570)
You're unnecessarily fixated on the 1% threshold I set out earlier. While nothing you said has changed my mind (my estimate is still <1%), I'm not really interested in the exact number. My point is that your concerns are qualitatively irrelevant (practically, not morally). So what if, in the absence of gerrymandering, there would be 100 fewer Republican congressmen? The Senate still isn't passing NN, and Trump is still stacking the judiciary with conservatives.

I'm not here to defend Republicans (I think they're pretty bad) or the practices you described (I also think those are bad). But that doesn't change the fact that gerrymandering and power grabs and Fox News are nearly completely inconsequential in explaining the world in front of us. Quit with the liberal wishcasting. People don't vote Republican because they've been misled by some sinister conspiracy. They just don't want what you're selling.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by bduerst on Thursday March 07, 2019 @02:25PM (#19331275)
The articles I listed do a good job of explaining that, especially the NYT one and how they cling to control in states they lose votes in. It's much more than the 1% or 2% which you keep repeating to minimize it.
Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by ctlby on Thursday March 07, 2019 @02:40PM (#19331448)
Your article explains the House of Representatives makeup in what the NYT concedes is the single most gerrymandered state in the country. Should we really be generalizing from that?

Regardless. The biggest obstacle to NN is currently the Senate and the Presidency. Two out of your three points are completely irrelevant to those offices. Is it all just Fox News? The Russians?

[dead]
Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by ctlby on Thursday March 07, 2019 @03:20PM (#19331921)
Dude, you're just hand-waving at this point. Add up all the gerrymandering you want. Maybe it gets you to 2%. Maybe 5%. Heck, let's say it accounts for 100% of Republican House members!

Wave your wand and make it disappear. The House is now... still Democratic. And the Senate is now... oh dang, still Republican! And the Trumpenfuhrer... still there!

Sounds to me like your electoral boogeymen don't have that much explanatory power.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by cloudsinthesky on Thursday March 07, 2019 @01:32PM (#19330689)
> Republicans can only remain in power if people continue to vote them into office

That's not true. People voted them out in 2016 but their votes were not counted, or their registrations were falsely and illegally cancelled, etc. There is a lot more at play here than people's choices; and given that people's ability to choose with correct information and free will has been significantly hampered by Republican-led efforts to reduce the quantity of real factual information in the hands of voters, replaced with lies designed to steal votes.

Now I know that Donald Trump lies a lot, like a lot but sometimes he tells the truth. He has stated at least 5 times that neither he nor his supporters would accept any election results where he did not win.

The current President threatens the nation regularly with his active plans to cancel the next elections and stay in power.

Be careful assuming that the popularity of politicians or their party has anything at all to do with them being in power. It doesn't.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by balabaster on Thursday March 07, 2019 @01:37PM (#19330746)
Um... isn't the constitution designed to prevent shit like this happening?

I have no special interest in American politics as I just watch from the other side of the border, but I'm pretty sure my understanding of the political system down there is full enough that I'm right in saying that a sitting president can't legally follow through on threats like that without getting evicted from office.

Aren't there failsafes and backup plans and laws and a justice department to prevent presidential overreach?

This is the whole purpose of the three branches of government.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by hannasanarion on Thursday March 07, 2019 @02:04PM (#19331057)
Just because the constitution was intended to have certain properties, doesn't mean that it actually does.

For example, the chief architects of the Constitution, James Madison and Alexander Hamilton, tried several times to eliminate the Electoral College with amendments once they saw how it behaved. They wrote extensively about how their intention had been subverted and the language they chose was a mistake, but other politicians rebuffed their efforts to fix the mistake, and decided instead to exploit it: presidential candidates can ignore most of the voters.

Re:Democrats Unveil New Bill to Fully Restore Net Neutrality by toyg on Thursday March 07, 2019 @01:48PM (#19330879)
Paraphrasing a certain mustachioed totalitarian, how many federal agents does the Constitution command? Is the Constitution going to personally storm the White House? Even if it did, what would happen if there were resistance at the other end?