> Or do you mean something like "show them the results, and convince them it's a good idea"?
Good question, I think our disagreement may actually come down to how we view the definition of "force".
I did mean the former (military/police force). I think the latter is the best (and only moral) way to get things done (winning hearts and minds). But where we may differ is that I believe even democratic laws are force because they are ultimately enforced by police agencies at the barrel of a gun (or threat of imprisonment).
So I don't really see a philosophical difference in imposing universal healthcare at a federal level on a State (pick any conservative state for example) who doesn't want it, or invading another country militarily and forcing them to do it. Both result in the imprisonment or death of people who refuse to be assimilated.
That's why I argue for doing it at the lowest level possible, such as New York State or even better maybe NY City. If somebody wants to "opt out" they can move, which isn't a great solution, but it's certainly easier to move out of the city or state than to move out of the country.
Then at the same time we can evangelize for universal healthcare and demonstrate with our own state that it can work. Once it's proven, I bet many other states would adopt it as well. This extends beyond healthcare IMHO to almost every other facet of law.
Huh, interesting. Well, how about this: let me off you a 2-for-1 deal. You get to strike 2 laws of your choice off the books, in exchange for 1 military invasion of your state. Federal laws, state laws, hell maybe you really don't like your hamlet's zoning regulations, whatever. Your choice. In exchange for... let's say, 10 years of Iraq-style military invasion & occupation (the US invasion of Iraq, I mean, not Iraq's invasion of Kuwait). We've been there for over 15, but 10 is a nice round number. 1-for-1 is a wash, sure, I get that, but 2-for-1 seems like a good deal. What 2 laws would you pick?
> Once it's proven, I bet many other states would adopt it as well. This extends beyond healthcare IMHO to almost every other facet of law.
Interesting—so you think that the objections to universal health care are that people don't think it'll work?
Yes, I'm sure there were plenty of colonizers who thought they were doing the right thing, but there were plenty who did not, who had no concern about the lives of the people they destroyed through slavery and genocide. The fact that some of them might have had good intentions in midst of all the death and oppression doesn't change what they did.
> One could make a case that cultures who reject universal healthcare are uncivilized, therefore we should go in and force them to become enlightened like us.
I'm not sure what you mean by "force" here—are you talking about slavery or genocide? Military takeover?
Or do you mean something like "show them the results, and convince them it's a good idea"?
> seems to pre-suppose that there is objective morality, or objective good and bad, and that the viewpoint you have arrived at is the only objectively correct view
That's also a straw man. You don't need to believe in a single objectively correct view to decide that "affordable medicine" is better than "400 years of brutal oppression". If my ruler can't determine which of two lines is longer when they're less than 1mm different, that doesn't mean it can't determine that a 2cm line is shorter than a 10cm line.
> It sounds like you are saying "it's too hard or complex" because they are different political bodies (please correct me if I misunderstand you here) so it's not worth doing.
Not that it is, or isn't worth doing—just that it's a very different thing. Is it too hard or complex? Well, it's certainly a lot harder and more complex. Too hard or complex, I have no idea.
> If you truly cared, would it not be worth taking over their political body to force them to be more compassionate to their people?
That sounds like one of those foolish "if you could go back in time to kill Hitler" thought exercises. And it has the same answer—if you could do that, then you could also stop him without killing him.
Similarly, if you wanted to convince people that more affordable access to health care is a good thing, you don't need to take over their country.
> what if someone in a heavily Christian southern state, who knows that they have the truth of Jesus Christ on their side (i.e. they are certain of their morally superior position), decides that New York is immoral and calloused for permitting abortion. Would you support them working at a federal level to ban it nationwide?
I'm not sure if you've been reading the news lately, but that's what they've been doing. So they're definitely not waiting for my permission.
> Would you support them working at a federal level to ban it nationwide? Surely they believe not doing so is callous. How do you argue against that?
I'm not sure why I would need to—yes, they think it's a lot worse than callous. Them being convinced of their morally superior position doesn't mean that I am convinced of their morally superior position.