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Re:Studying the demise of historic civilisations by TeMPOraL on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @02:14AM (#19308707)
Have you ever seen Connections[0]? Do watch it if you haven't[1]. They communicate well what's IMO a crucial point: almost never a single person had invented the "whole solution". The story of civilization is one of individual inventions being made over time, and then coming together to click into place and create something pushing us forward even further. It did happen in the past like it is happening today; both then and now it seems to work better under a stable governance - hence big empires do in fact contribute to scientific progress by their very existence. It's happening faster today than it was then because we're further along the exponential curve - but it's the same curve, the same process, we've been following for thousands of years.

Like it often is with wealth, we're not special - our current empires just had richer parents and bigger accumulated base of inventions. We can build cooler stuff now than our ancestors - but let's never forget that "what makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before"[2].

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[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_(TV_series)#Connec...

[1] - I think I've seen them on dailymotion; of course I don't encourage copyright infringement, it's very important to keep our most important works unaccessible until everyone who might be interested in them dies off and only archaeologists will care.

[2] - http://www.ovff.org/pegasus/songs/toast-for-unknown-heroes.h... / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zotaRLROtw

Re:Studying the demise of historic civilisations by raverbashing on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @02:21AM (#19308740)
Oh I loved Connections

> Like it often is with wealth, we're not special - our current empires just had richer parents and bigger accumulated base of inventions. We can build cooler stuff now than our ancestors

Yes, totally agree. But what I'm saying is that those old empires didn't have technological evolution as a goal (maybe the latter ones) hence they didn't really think of it.

Sure, evolution and ideas take time, but it seems it took much less time once the right mindset was in place.

Re:Studying the demise of historic civilisations by TeMPOraL on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @02:46AM (#19308879)
> Sure, evolution and ideas take time, but it seems it took much less time once the right mindset was in place.

Right. But come to think of it, that mindset is, too, a technology. It took a while to develop, and its evolution seems to be intertwined with the inventions humans made over time, and the shape societies took.

Re:Studying the demise of historic civilisations by dredmorbius on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @05:18AM (#19309542)
mindset is, too, a technology

Hrm... Would you consider that independent of technical or causal (scientific) knowledge? Is it values, or more than just that?

Re:Studying the demise of historic civilisations by TeMPOraL on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @05:52AM (#19309691)
I don't think it's just values. Knowledge and technology plays into this too.

I don't have a fully fleshed out model in my head just yet, but I imagine it like this: humans seem to have a pretty fixed emotional and cognitive makeup. What changes is the landscape in which we operate - what technologies are available, what customs exist in our times, what are the core "cultural memes". Kind of like water flowing downhill - a simple process in itself, but where it goes and what shape it takes depends on the landscape it's flowing through, and the flow itself shapes that landscape over time.

Another way of viewing this: we humans are like somewhat fixed neurons, but it's the connections we make with each other that change. Connections both to our contemporaries through complex social structures, as well as to the past, through knowledge accumulated in books and traditions, and other artifacts of past cultures.

Re:Studying the demise of historic civilisations by dredmorbius on Tuesday March 05, 2019 @09:04AM (#19310536)
Interesting. I've been thinking along similar lines, though not yet incorporating mindset or worldview, instead focusing more on technological mechanisms:

Briefly addressed here: https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/5rnjg0/state_o...

More:

https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/klsjjjzzl9plqxz-ms8nww