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Re:Uyghurs in Xinjiang – Onward to the Inevitable by thaumasiotes on Friday March 01, 2019 @07:55PM (#19286754)
Yes, the Great Qing, 大清, was the last imperial dynasty of China. It was a roughly 300-year period during which the Chinese people did not enjoy self-rule. The Qing was established and ruled by the Manchus, a semi-civilized people from the northeast who conquered the (Chinese) Ming dynasty. Two Qing emperors had Chinese mothers, but the demarcation between Manchus and Chinese was always clear. The queue hairstyle that all male Chinese were legally required to wear as a symbol of subjugation was the Manchu traditional hairstyle. The Chinese hated it. (See: symbol of subjugation.)

Right now there are a few popular movements in China that do things like wear 14th-century clothing in their free time because what has come to be viewed as "traditional Chinese clothing" is, in their view, actually Manchu, having become popular under the Qing. Chinese-language tours of the Forbidden City will emphasize that although the Qing imperial family lived there and governed from there, the City was built in the Ming dynasty and is therefore authentically Chinese.

In other words, the distinction between the Qing ruling classes and the Chinese people has always been deeply felt on both sides, and still is.

In response to your edit a couple levels up:

> OK, so you argue that TFA is wrong about current Uyghurs being a "Turkic group".

I wouldn't put it that strongly. (I'll admit my wording there was pretty poor.) The current Uyghurs speak a Turkic language and broadly share a culture with other Turkic-speaking peoples around them. It's fair to call them a "Turkic group". But I think it's an error to assume they have very much in common with the ancient people also called the Uyghurs, and in particular they are not ethnically Turkic in the same way that the ancient Uyghurs were ethnically Turkic. But they are ethnically Turkic in the same way that the modern Turks (in Turkey) are ethnically Turkic.

(While we're on the subject of classifying ethnies by the language they speak, I'll note that the Manchu language does not belong to the Sino-Tibetan (Chinese) language family.)

> I'm pretty sure that there are many instances where the Spanish displaced one indigenous group with another. In the Caribbean, they committed genocide, and brought in African slaves.

Sure, the analogy between those Africans and the modern Uyghurs is much tighter than between the Spanish and the Uyghurs.

Re:Uyghurs in Xinjiang – Onward to the Inevitable by mirimir on Friday March 01, 2019 @08:33PM (#19286892)
Thanks :) That was a very informative thread.

And an off-topic question. I've always been struck by the apparent inversion of terms for deities between the Hindus and Persians.

Hindus: benevolent Devas and their ~enemies Asuras

Persians: good gods Ahuras vs bad gods Daevas

Then we have the term "devil", which sounds a lot like "deva/daeva". And maybe even "asura/ahura" to "angel"?

Am I just tripping, or is there something to that?

Re:Uyghurs in Xinjiang – Onward to the Inevitable by thaumasiotes on Friday March 01, 2019 @09:04PM (#19287029)
Sanskrit and Persian (or, as you prefer, Hindi and Farsi) are closely related, both belonging to the "Indo-Iranian" branch of the Indo-European language family, so a connection is plausible.

My go-to for etymological questions is https://www.etymonline.com . Looking up the entries for "Ahura Mazda", "Asmodeus", "deva", and "devil", we see that yes, ahura and asura are the same word (descending from an Indo-European root meaning "spirit", and cognate with the Norse Asa-gods), and daeva and deva are also the same word (descending from a root meaning "shine", and cognate with e.g. "divine").

"Devil" is not related to deva/daeva/divine, though -- it comes from a Greek word meaning "slander" or "attack". The "de" part is the Greek prefix dia-, "across", and the "vil" part is the Greek root -ball-, "throw". (This is clearer in the preserved adjective form, "diabolical".) So similarity to "deva" is a coincidence. Similarly, "angel" is a word of unknown origin, not related to ahura/asura. (In ancient Greek, anggelos is an ordinary word referring to ordinary messengers.)

Etymology is certainly an interest of mine, but I'm curious why you chose to ask me about it. It's not obvious to me where I suggested that I might know the answer to your question (which I didn't) or how to find out (which I did).

Re:Uyghurs in Xinjiang – Onward to the Inevitable by mirimir on Friday March 01, 2019 @09:44PM (#19287158)
Thanks.

I asked because you seem knowledgeable about cultures. Whereas I'm 100% a science geek.