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Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by sriram_sun on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:21PM (#19276845)
Oh yes you have. Every dealer everywhere charges a "Destination Fee." That is what you pay for delivery to the dealer's. That line item for the price of the car is non-negotiable. There is wiggle room on MSRP etc.

This was the first google result that came up for "car destination fee" :- A "destination charge" is a fee that the manufacturer charges to deliver a vehicle from the factory to the dealership, and that is passed on by the dealer to the consumer; it is not included in the MSRP of the vehicle. Destination charges are typically not negotiable.

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by chrisseaton on Thursday February 28, 2019 @09:33PM (#19277493)
Why would anyone want to negotiate individual line items rather than just negotiating on the final bottom-line price? Why would I care if I'm reducing the destination fee or the actual price? What difference does it make to me?
Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by 1123581321 on Thursday February 28, 2019 @10:09PM (#19277630)
The line items usually come up when negotiating the final price. It’s hard to avoid discussing the details unless one party has a string negotiating position and highly values minimal communication.

As to why you’d want to: if you ask someone to quote bottom line, and they do, then you can start picking their line items apart to go lower. Or if you quote high, you can use line items as justification for it to some buyers.

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by chrisseaton on Thursday February 28, 2019 @10:16PM (#19277658)
> then you can start picking their line items apart to go lower

But why? If I want a lower price I don’t care where they have to shave it from to do that do I? I don’t care about how they’ve arrived at a price or how it’s accounted for if I just want it be lower.

I say I want that price to be lower in order for me to buy and they say yes or no depending on if it’s worth it for them.

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by 1123581321 on Thursday February 28, 2019 @10:27PM (#19277690)
Based on your last sentence, you might be ending negotiations too early. An early “bottom-line” ultimatum leaves money on the table because the details haven’t been fully considered by the other party, so (in auto sales) the seller hedges with a higher price.

A more thorough discussion can bring down the offer they are willing to accept. You don’t have to care about the details to use them in a negotiation.

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by chrisseaton on Thursday February 28, 2019 @10:35PM (#19277720)
I don’t get it - asking ‘can you reduce line item n by x’ is exactly the same thing as ‘can you reduce the bottom line by x’, except the former asks them to do something they may not be able to do (that’s how this conversation started - the delivery fee) and the latter lets them achieve what you want any way they’re able to.

So why would you ever use the former approach? It’s strictly worse.

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by jancsika on Friday March 01, 2019 @01:28AM (#19278405)
> I don’t get it - asking ‘can you reduce line item n by x’ is exactly the same thing as ‘can you reduce the bottom line by x’

"Can you reduce bottom line by x" is like saying, "the documentation is a bit vague, can you improve it please?"

"Can you reduce line item n by x" is like saying, "there's no way the user could possibly intuit that the sampling period may be truncated to precisely hit the target value after the specified duration. Given that the programming language itself has no specification, this longstanding behavior must be explained clearly in the user docs."

Which response do you suppose will be more likely to lead to an improvement in the docs? It's probably the one that shows evidence you know your domain and how to assess quality there.

Of course, that analogy is the dream. In reality the car salesperson will come back with the reduced line item but with adjustments somewhere else. And it's hard to keep track of because, for example, how would an increase in the down payment affect your idea of the "total bottom line?"

This would be like a developer countering by saying, "Ok, but to clarify that section of the docs I added threading to the event loop." And then every single developer suddenly becomes some kind of darkworld saboteur, and you finally give in by saying, "I guess this is just how software gets made..."

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by chrisseaton on Friday March 01, 2019 @09:30AM (#19280877)
Just look at the total-cost-of-ownership. As long as I can afford the down payment and I can afford the monthly payment then I just want to reduce the total-cost-of-ownership for the car I want. In other words I want the dealer to optimise for that variable and as long as they meet my constraint for affording the down and monthly payments then I don't care how those vary as long as the optimisation goal is met.

Line itemisation is very silly for cars. All I need to know is how much does it cost me to get the car. I don't care that some of that money goes to person A and some of it to person B. Irrelevant to me!

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by jancsika on Friday March 01, 2019 @01:51PM (#19284059)
> In other words I want the dealer to optimise for that variable and as long as they meet my constraint for affording the down and monthly payments then I don't care how those vary as long as the optimisation goal is met.

But you would have already told them, "As long as I can afford..." So they'll spend the entire exchange trying to optimize for the maximum amount they think you can afford. They can try to convince you they've optimized when they really haven't, and they can try to pick a vehicle of a lower quality and persuade you that the price drop is the optimization.

If your response to every trick is to respond, "No, please try again to optimize for TCO," they'll eventually interpret your behavior as the equivalent of an ad-blocker. Then they'll either persuade you to reveal more data or move on to a customer who negotiates on their terms.

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by chrisseaton on Friday March 01, 2019 @02:28PM (#19284407)
I don’t understand how you think it’s any different - you ask ‘can you reduce the price for the paint finish’ and I ask ‘can you reduce the bottom line price’. In both cases it’s the same reduction in their profit margin. Why do a dance around which line item it supposedly comes off?
Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by 1123581321 on Saturday March 02, 2019 @05:36PM (#19291566)
Because they will say no to your question and yes to jancsika’s question. We’ve given you some reasons why rhetorical/persuasive skill and willingness to work to find an angle on a negotiation improves the results.

There is a difference simply because the results are different, whether due to the need to save face, behavior psychology, sales training, or more intangible factors.

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by jancsika on Monday March 04, 2019 @12:42PM (#19303249)
Just to be clear-- in reality the game is rigged by the dealership and salesperson such that it is extremely likely one will pay too much for the vehicle. Or at least the sale will not be optimized for TCO. And that is regardless of whether one plays the salesperson's game or tries to "beat the game."

What I'm saying is that either OP will accidentally give away information at the outset that virtually guarantees overpayment-- "Here's what I can afford"-- or robotically repeat a fair price calculated ahead of time and request TCO optimization until they are thrown out of the dealership.

It'd be like going to a shell game and requesting to pay $7 so your kid can have 10 guesses at where the shell is. Then when they ignore you, start asking what's wrong with that, I mean, those are the odds, no? I've even rounding up for that pure profit. Why wouldn't someone with a big crowd of good faith players want to accept that?

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by 1123581321 on Thursday March 07, 2019 @11:42AM (#19329498)
That makes sense — thank you.
Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by arbie on Thursday February 28, 2019 @10:54PM (#19277795)
This is the human factor at play.
Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by linkmotif on Friday March 01, 2019 @07:20AM (#19279856)
Life’s a stage and all the world is a play
Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by Jedd on Thursday February 28, 2019 @08:53PM (#19277321)
> Oh yes you have. Every dealer everywhere ...

You may be doing that thing where you assume parent, and indeed everyone, is in the same country you are in, subject to the same laws, regulations, and traditional rorts.

Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by smolsky on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:33PM (#19276903)
...and yet I managed to knock the price down by 5K and 2K off MSRP when I bought my last 2 vehicles. So this destination charge is often a moot point with regular car brands/dealers.
Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by selimthegrim on Thursday February 28, 2019 @07:32PM (#19276891)
This is typically on the order of $300-500 though
Re:$35,000 Tesla Model 3 Available Now by gamblor956 on Thursday February 28, 2019 @11:23PM (#19277913)
Oh no, I definitely have never paid a delivery fee. I am one of those weirdos that reads the entire sales contact before signing.

You have to be pretty bad at negotiating to be hit with a delivery fee since in my neck of the woods, aka SoCal, most dealers will waive that for everyone.