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Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by throwawaymath on Sunday February 24, 2019 @11:31AM (#19239193)
Those numbers are outrageous on their own. But what's even more amazing is that not all emergencies result in crashes. Air Canada Flight 143 ran out of fuel halfway into the journey and there were no fatalities! They literally glided to a motor track. That's so incredible a modern movie would have trouble getting its audience to suspend disbelief for it.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by peeters on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:01PM (#19239338)
The cause analysis of how they ended up with half a tank of fuel is crazy. The crew loading the fuel mistook lbs for kg. The plane's fuel indicators were faulty and required a manual procedure before takeoff. The engineer communicated that to a pilot and the pilot misunderstood. That pilot relayed his misunderstanding to the next pilot and that next pilot misunderstood the misunderstanding. And then that next pilot misunderstood the checklist indicating whether it was legal to fly with the non-functioning fuel gauge. And the flight engineer didn't catch the lbs/kg mistake. Then during a brief stopover in Ottawa, the captain thought to re-measure the fuel with the floatstick, but still used the incorrect conversion factor.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by dovetailcode on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:43PM (#19239574)
Why don't they just ditch imperial measurements altogether?

Also, that description sounds like tracing a bug through a few layers of software where there wasn't proper error handling along the way, just trusting the data being passed around.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by laken on Sunday February 24, 2019 @02:09PM (#19240032)
Amusingly, the reason why the confusion was there was because at that time Canada was in the process of converting from the Imperial system to the Metric, but they had to manually convert some things still!
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by DuskStar on Sunday February 24, 2019 @02:07PM (#19240018)
If I'm remembering correctly, they were in the process of switching from imperial to metric at the time.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by eterm on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:41PM (#19239560)
I wonder how many lives are lost each year (not just in aviation but globally) because the US refuses to convert to the metric system.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by microcolonel on Sunday February 24, 2019 @01:09PM (#19239709)
> I wonder how many lives are lost each year (not just in aviation but globally) because the US refuses to convert to the metric system.

Keep in mind that the U.S. is not the only place where measures are mixed. If anything, British people end up using more measures than Americans. Here in Canada, we have a lot of things read out in both, because of the immense sticking power of customary measures.

U.S. organizations are actively encouraged and (for the most part) fully allowed to adopt SI measures, but it's not like switching road sides, where everything makes sense after you hear "drive on the right now".

Keep in mind that powered flight was basically entirely developed by Americans and pre-SI Brits, and already had more than fifty years of history by the time either pioneering country adopted SI in any significant way. It should not surprise you in the slightest that an American plane expected to hear fuel mass given as weight in pounds; in fact, it should astonish you that anyone is trying to measure it in kilograms in North America.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by eterm on Sunday February 24, 2019 @02:22PM (#19240089)
I'm British, so you don't need to explain using mixed systems, however in any kind of academic, engineering or scientific contexts metric units are used almost exclusively. Yes, people still refer to height in feet and inches a lot, and we'll drink a pint (a real pint! None of your mini-pints!), but that does change over time. For example older people will use stone and pounds for their weight but being younger the doc doesn't bother telling me my weight in anything but kilograms so I don't even know my weight except in Kg.

Even in Britain, in almost all engineering contexts, SI units would be assumed. Your point about Americans assuming imperial units is precisely wwhy it's so dangerous that metrification hasn't happened there.

If the US went metric, then there would no longer be any need to assume anything but metric anywhere, and it would be safer for it.

Yes, there's a long standing tradition, but it only takes a couple of generations to completely change, and that would likely be hastened by being the last large country to do so and having a large cultural footprint on the rest of the world.

If the US did convert to metric, in 3 or 4 generations the whole world would be metric, and there wouldn't be any "wrong assumptions", and it is making bad assumptions that lead to preventable failures.

If China can manage to go metric, the US can too.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by microcolonel on Sunday February 24, 2019 @02:31PM (#19240126)
> however in any kind of academic, engineering or scientific contexts metric units are used almost exclusively

This is true in the United States as well, but fueling a commercial airplane is not an academic, scientific, or even an engineering exercise. It is as routine and pedestrian as refueling a bus.

> Your point about Americans assuming imperial units is precisely wwhy it's so dangerous that metrification hasn't happened there.

Or maybe it's an argument for why "metrification" is itself dangerous. The problem is the transition, not being on either side of the fence. It seems to me that the only safe mode of transition is first to dual readout, and only then to SI-exclusive.

Don't get me wrong, I like SI units, I use them every day, and I don't long to spend any time multiplying and dividing by irregular fractions; I just don't like the dismissive "shoulda been metric" rhetoric that floats around everywhere; as though you can just stop selling letter paper and force everyone to use A-series compatible envelopes, and convert the clean (if baroque) markings on the paper products to bizarre decimal fractions of a g/m² without any empathy for the old guard.

Some people care about how Britain still drives on the wrong side of the road, but that doesn't mean they should berate you every time a drunk roadtripping Frenchman turns out into oncoming traffic.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by Symbiote on Sunday February 24, 2019 @04:18PM (#19240668)
A British bus will be refuelled in litres, which I think was the point.

> as though you can just stop selling letter paper and force everyone to use A-series compatible envelopes, and convert the clean (if baroque) markings on the paper products to bizarre decimal fractions of a g/m² without any empathy for the old guard.

The first part was done in Britain in the 1950s, but with the weights rounded to convenient metric numbers.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by stordoff on Sunday February 24, 2019 @06:22PM (#19241316)
> A British bus will be refuelled in litres, which I think was the point.

Refuelled in litres, but with efficiency measured in miles per gallon. It's kind of a mess.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by Symbiote on Monday February 25, 2019 @05:13PM (#19249972)
That's the case for cars, but I wouldn't be certain it's the same for buses, especially large fleets of public transport buses.

All three British bus manufactures give all measurements except speed in metric, although none give an actual fuel consumption. (Just "20% better" etc.)

[1], as the first reference I can find, uses both l/100km and mpg.

[1] https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/fuel_consumption_of_p...

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by bostonpete on Sunday February 24, 2019 @09:06PM (#19242200)
Miles per US gallon or miles per imperial gallon?
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by magduf on Monday February 25, 2019 @12:44PM (#19247563)
The latter, miles per UK gallon. Watch out for that, because if you don't know better, you'll read about some car in the UK and wonder why it has such astounding fuel economy!
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by cheerlessbog on Sunday February 24, 2019 @03:05PM (#19240307)
Even in academia doesn't the US use CGS, and most of the rest of the world uses SI/MKS? We can't use the same physics textbooks.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by mypalmike on Sunday February 24, 2019 @05:34PM (#19241068)
I took high-school and college physics in the US around 30 years ago. It was all SI then, and I suspect it still is.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by NeedMoreTea on Sunday February 24, 2019 @02:54PM (#19240246)
> If the US went metric, then there would no longer be any need to assume anything but metric

That might be a tiny bit optimistic. I'm in my mid 50s, and UK schooling taught me nothing but metric. I vaguely remember some sort of half-hearted campaign and leaflets about it, I think that was before we joined the EU. In 2019, and we are still not there yet.

I'm not sure the last popular holdouts are ever likely to change at this point.

I'm surprised, but thankful, that the Brexit lunacy hasn't (yet) brought calls to return to Imperial and £sd. :)

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by stordoff on Sunday February 24, 2019 @06:11PM (#19241262)
> I'm surprised, but thankful, that the Brexit lunacy hasn't (yet) brought calls to return to Imperial and £sd. :)

Unfortunately:

Return of pounds and ounces? Britain might allow firms to use imperial measures after Brexit https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/17/return-pounds-ou...

EXCLUSIVE: Experts Slam "Bonkers" Proposal To Re-Introduce Imperial Measurements After Brexit, In Letters To Government http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/04/exclusive-experts-slam-bonk...

Now that we are to be a sovereign nation again, we must bring back imperial units https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/01/now-sovereign-na...

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by NeedMoreTea on Sunday February 24, 2019 @06:52PM (#19241471)
Sigh. Thankfully I'd missed that. Not surprised it was Heffer, I think he'd like to send us back to about 1912. Gizmodo piece was fairly entertaining though. :)
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by jen20 on Sunday February 24, 2019 @08:52PM (#19242116)
Fortunately the post-boomer “sanity” generation are not going to accept imperial units other than pint (for beer), regardless of what people pining for a past in which they were relevant may want.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by darkpuma on Sunday February 24, 2019 @02:28PM (#19240115)
> Keep in mind that powered flight was basically entirely developed by Americans and pre-SI Brits

The french played a very dominant role as well.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by microcolonel on Sunday February 24, 2019 @02:34PM (#19240134)
> The french played a very dominant role as well.

As far as I've known, that largely involved a tremendous number of English channel crossings, but I will look more into that so I don't stay ignorant; thanks. ;- )

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by darkpuma on Sunday February 24, 2019 @09:49PM (#19242423)
So an Frenchman, creator of he first practical monoplane, crosses the English channel before an Brit does... but the Channel is named for the English so the Brits get the credit? Nice dude...

Here are a few places for you to begin your research:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_in_the_pioneer_era

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Semaine_d%27Aviation_de...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Blériot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9_pour_l%27avi...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9ro-Club_de_France

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornu_helicopter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27A%C3%A9rophile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Arm%C3%A9e_de_l...

Aside: How many American-made components do you see with big bold French labels on them? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fdr_sidefront.jpg

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by willyt on Sunday February 24, 2019 @03:09PM (#19240328)
Fuselage, Empennage, Ailerons...
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by EForEndeavour on Sunday February 24, 2019 @03:38PM (#19240485)
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by microcolonel on Sunday February 24, 2019 @04:38PM (#19240768)
Hangar, Mayday (m'aider), Bombardier, Airport...
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by billforsternz on Sunday February 24, 2019 @02:50PM (#19240228)
Hopefully you're being deliberately ironic, but your comment indicates a purely anglo-centric perspective. Continental European endeavour irrelevant except when it intersects with the homeland!
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:46PM (#19239587)
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by rzimmerman on Sunday February 24, 2019 @08:44PM (#19242074)
The loss of MCO is actually a very interesting story about both engineering culture (engineers noticed a problem but the organization didn’t respond to investigate/fix it) and the conversion to metric. The root came from NASA deciding to use metric on this project and a contractor using the wrong units. But it’s the kind of thing that the process should be able to catch and handle. It bugs me to dismiss this failure as “haha why doesn’t NASA use metric” because not only is it a direct result of NASA switching to metric, there are really good engineering lessons that get ignored.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by mertd on Sunday February 24, 2019 @01:45PM (#19239903)
Lives would also be lost in the ensuing confusion if US were to switch to the metric system.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by trothamel on Sunday February 24, 2019 @02:11PM (#19240045)
Indeed. It's only due to the skill of the pilots that lives weren't lost during the Gimli Glider incident.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by magduf on Monday February 25, 2019 @12:41PM (#19247526)
Only partially. Part of it was pure luck, that no one was on the track at that moment when the plane landed on it. There were people at the track at the time, doing races, but the plane just happened to come down at the right time.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by xvf22 on Sunday February 24, 2019 @06:14PM (#19241272)
They ended up fixing it afterwards and it continued to fly with Air Canada until 2008 and it went up for auction in 2013[0].

[0] https://business.financialpost.com/transportation/air-canada...

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by Tistel on Sunday February 24, 2019 @11:58AM (#19239326)
The Gimli Glider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

the pilots were initially punished (which is outrageous), then lauded, for their skills.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by peeters on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:02PM (#19239344)
Why is it outrageous that they were punished? Yes they saved the day but they had a very important role in allowing the mistake to happen in the first place.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by ohazi on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:21PM (#19239440)
The FAA has a tendency to punish deliberate acts or serious lack of judgement, i.e. "I'll fly under this bridge, it'll be awesome."

When mistakes happen by accident, they tend to give people lots of slack to encourage honest accounts so that they and the rest of the community can learn from the mistake. This is the reason behind things like the NASA form, which is sometimes seen as a "get out of jail free" card. You write a detailed account of what happened after certain kinds of accidents/incidents, and if they conclude that you weren't being too stupid, or it wasn't a repeat issue that you should have learned from, they'll skip certain minor enforcement actions against you.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:51PM (#19239612)
Because pilots are humans, and humans make these types of human-mistakes generally. If your safety protocol relies on humans being perfect, you better resign yourself to a decent number of crashes. Better to build a system where openness around unintentional mistakes is encouraged, and then design that system to be redundant even in the face of human error.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by peeters on Sunday February 24, 2019 @11:13PM (#19242862)
I agree, but in this case the automatic systems to avoid human error were the primary systems, and the humans knew they were malfunctioning before takeoff, and yet failed to double check for human error and flew the flight despite it being illegal to do so with the automated system malfunctioning. So yes you want to design your system to limit the impact of human error, but the human pilots also bear a very large responsibility too. Not as much as the airline for sure, but I could see why the initial verdict would lean toward negligence from the sheer number of lapses in judgement that were made.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by jalgos_eminator on Sunday February 24, 2019 @11:39AM (#19239230)
Eh, I think most people can understand gliding pretty easily. What would really mess with their heads is a helicopter losing its engine and autorotating down to safety.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by PopeDotNinja on Sunday February 24, 2019 @11:54AM (#19239299)
Helicopters are often easier to land than planes. Landing a helicopter without power is part of learning how to fly a helicopter in the first place... https://youtu.be/pL1-QH7eQAY

Landing a 767 without power, not so much... https://youtu.be/GlkCofOyxUA

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by Dangeranger on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:10PM (#19239390)
While true, it's worth noting that mandatory auto-rotation training is due to the fact that helicopters are inherently unstable aircraft whose turbine engines have the habit of stalling at the worst possible moment.

> "The thing is, helicopters are different from planes. An airplane by it's nature wants to fly, and if not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or by a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly. A helicopter does not want to fly. It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces and controls working in opposition to each other, and if there is any disturbance in this delicate balance the helicopter stops flying immediately and disastrously. There is no such thing as a gliding helicopter. This is why being a helicopter pilot is so different from being an airplane pilot and why, in general, airplane pilots are open, clear eyed, buoyant extroverts, and helicopter pilots are brooders, introspective anticipators of trouble. They know that if something bad has not happened, it is about to."

-Harry Reasoner

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by dingaling on Monday February 25, 2019 @01:34AM (#19243510)
> whose turbine engines have the habit of stalling at the worst possible moment

Helicopter turbine engines operate on exactly the same principles at the 90,000lb thrust turbofan under the wing of a 777. They are incomprehensibly reliable.

Things that lead to helicopter autororation are usually mechanical failure of the transmission.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by Theodores on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:28PM (#19239481)
Then there is the Harrier Jump Jet.

Then there is the challenge of landing a Harrier Jump Jet on an aircraft carrier.

Then there is the challenge of landing a Harrier Jump Jet on an aircraft carrier that happens to be postage stamp sized and in the South Atlantic high seas during an actual war, the Falklands War.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by Shorel on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:11PM (#19239397)
Now I want a video where this happens instead of just someone talking over some pictures.

This still seems amazing and unbelievable to me.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by sokoloff on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:46PM (#19239586)
Google “helicopter autorotation” and have your pick.

Here’s one with an outside view, which I think is easier to grasp for non-pilots: https://youtu.be/twGid07JR9s

Basically, the helicopter “falls” down and slightly forward, driving the main rotor disc (potential energy turning into disc rotational energy), then the pilot flares the helo, slowing the forward speed and taking energy from the rotor disc to slow the vertical descent, finally resulting in the aircraft settling to the Earth at a slow speed. Just like gliding an airplane, it’s a one-shot kind of a thing (except in training where you generally keep the engine running and available).

Note that the rotor disc is connected to the engine via a one-way clutch, so the engine can drive the rotor but not vice-versa. Otherwise, a seized engine would result in a rotor disc stoppage (and an uncontrolled descent).

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by komodo on Sunday February 24, 2019 @01:09PM (#19239708)
Here's a Smarter Every Day video on the topic. Live demonstration starts at 6min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTqu9iMiPIU&feature=youtu.be...

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by inferiorhuman on Sunday February 24, 2019 @10:39PM (#19242702)
Landing a 767 without power, not so much... https://youtu.be/GlkCofOyxUA

That's a bit misleading. The Gimli Glider landed without thrust but almost certainly had electrical and hydraulic power. Same deal with the British Airways 777 that crashed at Heathrow.

Meanwhile, LATAM landed a 777 with no electrical power[1] not that long ago. That's a whole different ballgame.

1: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c1cc3f6&opt=0

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by nopzor on Sunday February 24, 2019 @12:42PM (#19239566)
practicing how to land an airplane without power is part of a basic private pilots license.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by lainga on Sunday February 24, 2019 @11:55AM (#19239307)
Yes, including several people who worked on game engines and whom I have frequently cursed out...
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by axaxs on Sunday February 24, 2019 @11:55AM (#19239306)
While definitely a cool factor, I'm not sure it would be so mindblowing. As a kid, we always called maple seeds 'helicopters', and their descent is a similar concept.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by 908087 on Sunday February 24, 2019 @01:21PM (#19239768)
Planes gliding to a safe landing after losing power isn't something anyone should be harboring disbelief of to begin with. I've experienced it twice myself.

The surprising part of that story was the seemingly endless string of fuck-ups that resulted in them running out of fuel mid-flight.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by magduf on Monday February 25, 2019 @12:53PM (#19247649)
>Planes gliding to a safe landing after losing power isn't something anyone should be harboring disbelief of to begin with. I've experienced it twice myself.

You must have been really lucky.

Sure, planes are perfectly capable of gliding to a safe landing after losing power. The problem is that there usually isn't a safe place nearby on the ground to land them at. So instead of a smooth, safe landing on some tarmac, they have a horrible crash-landing onto some kind of ground, if they're lucky. If they're not lucky, there's only mountains around and they just crash into them.

The nice thing about helicopters losing power is that a helicopter only needs a very small patch of level ground to land safely. Airplanes need an airstrip of some kind, and big airplanes need really long ones. Usually, if they're lucky, there's a decently straight highway close by.

Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by manigandham on Sunday February 24, 2019 @06:56PM (#19241498)
Good recent video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlkCofOyxUA
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by pbourke on Sunday February 24, 2019 @11:58AM (#19239325)
It helped that the Captain (I believe) was ex-military and an expert glider pilot. They landed at a mothballed RCAF base that was being used for drag racing. Amazing story.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by rpeden on Sunday February 24, 2019 @03:38PM (#19240482)
In addition to the captain's glider experience, the first officer just happened to have served at the RCAF station where they eventually landed. So they had at least a couple of extra things working in the favour that day.
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by highace on Sunday February 24, 2019 @01:04PM (#19239690)
Re:Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas by sm4rk0 on Sunday February 24, 2019 @07:30PM (#19241672)
They are reading the Wikipedia article, without attribution.