News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by tptacek on Friday November 19, 2010 @01:13PM (#1922173)
The concern I have with this article is that it dances around the core problem with US health care, which is that the underlying market for health services is --- in most cases --- coupled directly and inextricably with the health insurance establishment.

It's all well and good to tell people to fund HSAs or buy health discount cards or get savvier about spending and buy generic meds. But a trip to the emergency room or a serious illness is simply going to max out your deductable, no matter how cost-conscious you are.

The core problem is that medical services are priced by colluding hospital chains and insurance companies, and those prices are both (a) deliberately decoupled from the actual economics of providing health care and (b) a fig leaf covering the way hospitals and insurers actually resolve invoices.

Unless/until you can extract the insurers from medical pricing, no amount of free market cheerleading is going to fix the problem. We don't have a free market to fall back on.

Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by cabalamat on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:04PM (#1922361)
> We don't have a free market to fall back on.

Indeed. Vets can do operations for less than a tenth the price doctors can, so prices could presumably go a long way down given the right market incentives.

But getting the right incentives in place is the hard thing. I don't think there is a really good way to run health care, all the obvious solutins have big holes, e.g.:

- buyer paying for health care as they need it doesn't work because someone might not have any health problems for years then they are suddenly hit by a crippling bill

- insurance doesn't work because once people have a pre-existing condition, they can't buy insurance any more.

- big state-run bureaucracies have all the problems you'd expect with big state-run bureaucracies.

Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by gojomo on Friday November 19, 2010 @01:56PM (#1922330)
Can you think of any reforms that would break up the collusion without nationalizing the entire system?

(Published price lists with limits on 'negotiated discounts'? Antitrust actions splitting up larger operators? Tax favoritism for processes that make true costs clear, rather than for processes which hide costs through multiple levels of indirection?)

Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by tptacek on Friday November 19, 2010 @01:59PM (#1922341)
I'm not averse to nationalizing the entire system, so that's as far as my thinking usually goes.
Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by protomyth on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:08PM (#1922378)
The US has two major nationalized health care systems: Veterans Affairs and Indian Health Service. If they can't do these two low population (relatively) systems right, I cannot imagine them getting it right for the whole USA.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8557832

Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by tptacek on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:12PM (#1922392)
Fatalism isn't much of an argument. Meanwhile: what's the distinction you're making to keep Medicare and Medicaid out of the discussion?
Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by gojomo on Friday November 19, 2010 @03:20PM (#1922633)
Fatalism isn't much of an argument, but neither is, "I like nationalization, so I haven't thought about alternatives, and I don't think other existing federally-run health services provide any evidence about how a nationalized system might really turn out."
Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by protomyth on Friday November 19, 2010 @03:00PM (#1922568)
It is if it seems to be the result of a service. Don't really have any experience with Medicare / Medicaid and they don't operate their own hospitals / clinics. I do have experience(s) with IHS.
Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by tptacek on Friday November 19, 2010 @03:03PM (#1922575)
I don't --- does anybody? --- advocate for the nationalization of health providers.
Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by gojomo on Friday November 19, 2010 @03:16PM (#1922621)
In the countries held up as examples for nationalization -- UK, France, Canada -- aren't almost all providers now government employees?

If there's essentially only one payer, and even the terms of every transaction outside that one payer are dictated by national legislation, then the 'fig leaf' that the providers are nominally independent isn't worth much.

Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by yummyfajitas on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:02PM (#1922357)
I don't understand - what's the problem with insurers colluding to reduce costs? If they successfully create a downward price pressure, isn't that a good thing?
Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by tptacek on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:07PM (#1922371)
The side effect of their collusion coupled with their commanding share of the market is the destruction of the private market for health care, presumably because the administrative overhead of servicing that market and ensuring that it is transparent and inefficient dominates the returns they'd expect from it.

This isn't complicated: the price list for medical procedures bears no relationship either to the cost of those services or the money changing hands between providers and insurers.

Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by yummyfajitas on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:23PM (#1922431)
Why do you believe the private market was destroyed by collusion between insurance companies, rather than the massive government subsidies (20-30%, I think) provided to the employer-supplied insurance market?
Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by tptacek on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:29PM (#1922452)
You're trying to pin down a value judgement I'm not making. Stipulate that the government played a major role in creating this problem. Now what? I'm pretty sure my point still stands: there's no free market for private health care to fall back on, no matter how efficiently you consume health services.
Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by yummyfajitas on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:33PM (#1922472)
I'm not disputing your main point that the market in medical services is very far from free, or attempting to pin down a value judgement.

I'm only questioning your claim that collusion among insurance companies does much of anything besides push us closer to monopsony pricing.

Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by tptacek on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:46PM (#1922513)
Collusion between providers and insurers has, as an externality to the actual transaction taking place, severely distorted the market for medical services in the US. I'm not questioning whether insurers should be able to negotiate prices with providers.

If employer-sponsored health insurance wasn't the primary vehicle for medical expenses in the US, maybe you could get an actual price list for hospital services even in the face of aggressive negotiation. But it is, and so you can't, and any conversation about health expenses that tries to dodge that point is disingenuous. That's my point.

Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by brudgers on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:25PM (#1922441)
>"what's the problem with insurers colluding to reduce costs?"

Collusion is problematic because, the insurance companies [legal] duty is to increase their profits. Their interest in reducing costs is to reduce their cost of doing business not the patient's cost for services.

Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by yummyfajitas on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:30PM (#1922458)
Your claim seems to be that insurance companies are colluding to reduce costs out of self interest rather than altruism. What is problematic about this?
Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by brudgers on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:39PM (#1922491)
That is my observation and from a business standpoint that's all well and good.

However when the insurance companies collude to deny coverage for tuberculosis, it is problematic from the standpoint of my self interest because your untreated tuberculosis will kill me. There is a difference between healthcare and insurance.

Re:How to combat healthcare benefit costs as a startup by tptacek on Friday November 19, 2010 @02:31PM (#1922466)
This branch of the discussion is a red herring.