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Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by lovecg on Thursday February 14, 2019 @11:49AM (#19163307)
Even if the city gets back much more in tax revenue?
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by CydeWeys on Thursday February 14, 2019 @11:51AM (#19163328)
No, because then it's a race to the bottom and all other companies start expecting these same deals (or even better), and eventually you do end up with a situation where the city does not get back more in tax revenue.

It's simple negotiation; you may lose some money on that one deal, but you'll gain more in the end by not decreasing the value of all subsequent deals.

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by SilasX on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:39PM (#19163875)
Or, you'll lose out on all the businesses that won't start or expand there because the baseline level of taxation is too unfavorable for the economy (in either sense of the word) that the city offers.

It's almost like taxing easily-moveable economic activity is a bad idea.

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by CydeWeys on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:50PM (#19164018)
And yet there's a huge number of businesses that do have presences in NYC because the tax revenue funds all sorts of things that make NYC attractive to businesses that can't be gotten elsewhere.

A lot of what makes NYC great (like the 24/7 public transit system, the best in the country) costs serious money to operate. You need to get that money from tax revenue.

And businesses aren't actually easily-movable, not at all.

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by SilasX on Thursday February 14, 2019 @01:09PM (#19164229)
>And yet there's a huge number of businesses that do have presences in NYC because the tax revenue funds all sorts of things that make NYC attractive to businesses that can't be gotten elsewhere.

Most of which were present there because they set up a long time ago. The current environment makes it so that you pretty much have to get a discount to make it worth starting there, per the famous reddit comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/9wploz/ocasiocortez_bl...

>And businesses aren't actually easily-movable, not at all.

"Where they decide to locate new offices" is.

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by CydeWeys on Thursday February 14, 2019 @01:13PM (#19164264)
If that's true, then fix it for all businesses, not just for Amazon. Amazon deserves the white glove treatment the least.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by SilasX on Thursday February 14, 2019 @01:23PM (#19164369)
On that point, I agree.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by bduerst on Thursday February 14, 2019 @01:45PM (#19164598)
^ For anyone doubting this, Planet Money did an excellent podcast on how this phenomenon played out in Kansas City with corporations like Applebee's, and cost the city millions:

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/11/16/668769284/epis...

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by ApolloFortyNine on Thursday February 14, 2019 @02:27PM (#19165046)
You could easily argue it put Kansas City on the map.

Kansas City is at least a well known name in the tech world now, when there's plenty of other midwest cities of similar size that rarely get brought up.

Millions would be a steal for the revenue becoming a tech hub would bring in. Even if it does take a more than a decade to be realized.

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by meesterdude on Thursday February 14, 2019 @03:53PM (#19165900)
News to me kansas city is popular in the tech world now.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by ApolloFortyNine on Friday February 15, 2019 @10:20AM (#19171558)
I didn't say popular.

Cities of similar size: Albuquerque, Milwaukee, Louisville, Oklahoma City (and more).

Out of these, Kansas City comes up more often tech wise. I waste a good bit of time on sites like this discussing tech related matters, and not once have I read an article involving any of these cities.

This is why I said well known and on the map, not 'popular'.

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by bduerst on Thursday February 14, 2019 @04:39PM (#19166301)
How did giving Applebee's a tax discount put KC on the map for tech?
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by throwawaysea on Thursday February 14, 2019 @01:17PM (#19164309)
What's the problem with governments competing? That's not a "race to the bottom" any more than competition is a "race to the bottom" in market economics. It is a forcing function on efficiency and good governance where there would otherwise be no competitive pressure.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by natalyarostova on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:21PM (#19163700)
The counter-point to race to the bottom, is this is an important aspect of pressure in a democratic capitalism to prevent government as a leviathan. The government has a natural incentive to want to raise more revenue, and increase power. A strong market that can stifle these, at times potentially inefficient taxes, can provide a natural check on this.

Obviously the truth is that there are bad aspects of a race to the bottom as well as positive attributes. Finding the balance requires nuance and grace by the leaders who navigate these uncertain waters.

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by refurb on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:26PM (#19163752)
If a city signs up for a money losing deal, that’s on them. They should have negotiated better.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by CydeWeys on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:48PM (#19163992)
I mean, clearly we haven't signed up for the money-losing deal, as the deal has been canceled because of opposition and no give-aways will ever be made to Amazon.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by refurb on Thursday February 14, 2019 @01:36PM (#19164497)
I wasn’t referring to the NYC deal specifically.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by bacondude3 on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:10PM (#19163571)
Even then, no. If a city wants businesses there, they should make it easier for everybody, not just big companies like Amazon.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by jdhn on Thursday February 14, 2019 @11:53AM (#19163357)
You're getting downvoted, but it's true. If I recall, the city/state would've broken even not that far into the future, and then everything after that would've been pure profit for them.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by dralley on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:11PM (#19163573)
It's a matter of principle. NYC (or any municipality) shouldn't be bending over for massive multinationals. It's a form of corruption, one that's depressingly widespread, and it's a race to the bottom that, from a 30,000 foot view, accomplishes nothing but screwing over the taxpayers and smaller competitors lacking the leverage for these antics, and benefiting the corporations that are already enormous and powerful.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by jas_far on Thursday February 14, 2019 @01:00PM (#19164127)
I can’t believe you have to explain to people why corporatism is a bad thing. It underlies the largest problems in this country, and we should actively be protesting it.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by sneak on Thursday February 14, 2019 @01:53PM (#19164689)
It’s not corruption to reduce the required nonconsensual payment in your jurisdiction to attract new business.

The alternative, as is being demonstrated, is that you simply don’t get that business, and you lose out. x% of $0 is $0.

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by dralley on Thursday February 14, 2019 @02:06PM (#19164827)
>to attract new business

No. Not "new business". "A" new business. It's a sweetheart deal for one company in particular subsidized by the taxpayers. They're not reducing their citywide tax rate to attract Amazon, they're just giving a handout directly to Amazon.

What you're describing is nothing close to the reality. It's the prisoner's dilemma. Cities that participate in this scheme take turns screwing each other over in an attempt to get a minor benefit themselves, but compared to the scenario where nobody played the game to begin with, they all lose.

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by kansface on Thursday February 14, 2019 @02:27PM (#19165043)
This is not a zero sum game.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by dralley on Thursday February 14, 2019 @02:57PM (#19165399)
You're right - the Prisoner's Dilemma is a negative-sum game.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by OldFatCactus on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:04PM (#19163501)
do you have a link to that data?
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by jdhn on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:09PM (#19163561)
Here you go[0]. Some highlights:

1. $2.988 billion in state/city subsidies (so ~$48,000 per job)

2. The state estimated that Amazon will generate $27.5 billion in state and city revenue over 25 years, a 9:1 ratio of revenue to subsidies.

Using the numbers above, we can calculate that the state would break even in roughly 3 years if they're correct.

[0]https://ny.curbed.com/2018/11/16/18098589/amazon-hq2-nyc-que...

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by pzone on Thursday February 14, 2019 @02:47PM (#19165285)
The subsidies themselves would have been given to Amazon over the course of several years. NY would be in the black after no more than a year.
[dead]
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by deelowe on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:03PM (#19163487)
Yes it does. It's extremely common for businesses to be offered incentives like this. They are usually bounded in a way to ensure it's beneficial to the city. The ones I've seen are requiring a certain number of headcount be maintained over a specific duration, a certain amount in salary be paid out over a specific period of time, and certain infrastructure be installed within a certain period. If these obligations aren't met, then the company is required to pay back the incentives plus penalties.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by josefresco on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:07PM (#19163544)
Except this: https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-wisconsin-foxconn...

Maybe an extreme example of a "bad deal" but these aren't always a slam dunk, and some of the math to justify (especially sports stadiums) can be a bit iffy.

Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by throwaway2048 on Thursday February 14, 2019 @01:49PM (#19164642)
even if that is true (which it isn't) the HQ2 deal had no conditions like that attached.
Re:Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus by Guest42 on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:22PM (#19163707)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

But what about.....just kidding couldn't help it