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Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @05:24PM (#19157722)
Safe harbor is a mostly ridiculous concept where everyone has agreed tech companies should be able to profit from illegal activity and be exempt from being penalized for doing so.

It needs to die in the EU, and it needs to die here in the US. The apocalyptic language you've seen is merely companies upset that they may have to take on... the same responsibility to follow the law as the rest of us. The idea that the whole Internet is going to be illegal and everything you know and love is going to die is silly, and pretty much every single organization claiming such is funded by big tech.

If these companies want to continue to make money (they do), they'll figure out a way to make it work.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by cesarb on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @07:38PM (#19158618)
> Safe harbor is a mostly ridiculous concept where everyone has agreed tech companies should be able to profit from illegal activity and be exempt from being penalized for doing so.

It's the same as, for instance, the phone company. Even when a drug dealer uses the phone to order an assassination, the phone company is not penalized for allowing it - and doesn't even have to return the payments it received from the drug dealer. Nobody expects the phone company to use speech recognition to drop a call when a drug deal is being discussed, or to charge more for the call when it detects music being played in the background.

What "safe harbor" is all about is treating intermediaries as nothing more than intermediaries. The responsibility for content should be on whoever actively posts it, not on someone who just provided the "place" where it was posted.

As for "everything you know and love is going to die": many of us can think of several things we love, which have a good chance of being killed by this. Many small content creators who don't have the resources and/or knowledge to self-host (and even "self-hosting" is suspicious; would renting a VPS be considered self-hosting, or would the VPS vendors be required to police the contents of the VMs they rent, making it non-viable to provide inexpensive servers to the public?). Several of them, on losing their hosting, will simply give up on creating. And that's before considering potential new content which will never see the light of day.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by ocdtrekkie on Thursday February 14, 2019 @11:08AM (#19162944)
Here's a recent example of how safe harbor protects criminal enterprises: https://twitter.com/nicoduck/status/1091814851184377856

Amazon stole No Starch Press' books, wholesale. They printed fraudulent copies for profit and shipped them from their production facility to unwitting customers. But Amazon likely will face no punishment for this, nor will they have to give up their profits in literally producing and distributing counterfeit goods, because they didn't upload the PDF file, and can blame someone else on the Internet.

Safe harbor protects way more than "intermediaries". It protects businesses which are built around criminal activity. A better example than a "phone company", would be a company which produces encrypted communications hardware specifically geared for and marketed to drug dealers.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by lrem on Thursday February 14, 2019 @02:11AM (#19160204)
So you're saying this will kill creation without a big media contract?
Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by wvenable on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @07:43PM (#19158651)
If you want an Internet where every individual person can contribute then you need safe harbor. The alternative is nobody can contribute because any contribution could potentially be copyrighted by someone else whether it's text, audio, video, game, etc. Making every online space liable for that means that allowing individuals to contribute is simply too dangerous.

I could post all of Harry Potter to HackerNews comments one page at a time and I suppose this site is funded by "big tech" but you have some heavy biases on who this will affect and why they don't want it.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by dingaling on Thursday February 14, 2019 @06:38AM (#19161141)
> where every individual person can contribute then you need safe harbor.

Where every individual can contribute to centralised services

If we had a personally-hosted, contributor-is-owner Internet then there would be no need for 'safe harbor'. You could post all the Harry Potter content to your own website and when it was taken offline no-one else would be affected.

Safe harbor is a magnificent tool for centralising power. Little wonder that the big corps love it.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by wvenable on Thursday February 14, 2019 @12:12PM (#19163586)
You have to host your content somewhere. On my own dedicated servers I've personally been hit with requests to remove content that were sent directly to my data center.

So you're just wrong about no need for no 'safe harbor' for personally-hosted Internet. You always have to host somewhere or get your connection from someone. And that if that someone isn't as safe harbor they will filter or block you.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by anth_anm on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @06:46PM (#19158299)
The problem is that where you draw the lines around liability at that point?

If I'm running a hosting company should I be liable if someone posts content in violation of copyright? Even if I'm trying to run an honest business and take appropriate steps to remedy the situation?

If I'm anti-google should I be able to host copyrighted material on their cloud, hoping that they get sued over it?

Eliminating safe harbors seems like a nasty can of worms to open. Especially considering how massively abused any other system (contentid) is.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by icebraining on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @07:01PM (#19158398)
It doesn't affect just them, though; something like Sandstorm Oasis or GNU Savannah or public Mastodon servers or the Internet Archive - all of them rely on Safe Harbour provisions just as much as YouTube.
Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @08:28PM (#19158905)
I don't agree at all. All reputable law already understands conditions of intent and reasonableness. The issue is that tech companies have not just profited from, but encouraged illegal behavior that ran up their margins, and taken no action to reduce it because it was against their interests to do so.

Once these articles hopefully do pass, after the initial run of tech co panic has passed, we'll find the world has not ended, and companies doing legitimately bad things can be effectively punished.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by icebraining on Thursday February 14, 2019 @03:01AM (#19160365)
Nope, see Playboy v Frena, a pre-DMCA (and therefore, pre-Safe Harbor) case.

George Frena ran a BBS service, and some users uploaded Playboy pictures to share, so Playboy sued. The court explicitly wrote,

"It does not matter that Defendant Frena may have been unaware of the copyright infringement. Intent to infringe is not needed to find copyright infringement."

Furthermore, they also found Frena in violation of trademark (because the file names had "Playboy" in them).

Intent is important for criminal copyright law, but you can still be sued up to the wazoo (see the Thomas-Rasset case for the absurd values it can reach) by the copyright holder.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by cromwellian on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @08:45PM (#19158977)
Most analysts don't think any tech companies have profited from video hosting. And the idea that you should pay people for hyperlinking to them is against the very foundation of the Web and Fair Use.

The organizations behind these laws aren't the 'little guy' content creators, it's large rent-seeking publishing guilds that often fuck over artists and creators.

And this results in insane things like their lawyers doing blanket takedown on video game live streamers whose game happened to have some background music that was licensed.

Do you want to live in a world where you have to worry about the licenses in the transitive closure of every bit of content you've ever consumed? Human beings don't have the bandwidth for this amount of bureaucracy, it's like a nightmare Ayn Rand world where everyone must have contractual agreements between each other for microtransactions.

We used to think that the information age would remove bureaucracy and intermediary rent seekers and censors, but nearly 3 decades after the web's creation, here we are headed for a bantustan internet.

Sigh.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by ocdtrekkie on Thursday February 14, 2019 @10:29AM (#19162561)
You repeatedly cite video hosting, when the amount and types of content Google lifts is so much more expansive than just video. YouTube is harmful, yes, but there are plenty of other examples. For instance, Google killing CelebrityNetWorth, by leaving them the impossible choice to either let Google steal all of their value and ad revenue by putting their content in Knowledge Graph, or blocking Google entirely and removing themselves from search: https://theoutline.com/post/1399/how-google-ate-celebritynet...

There is no "link tax", the law does not require that you pay to link to someone. One of the most incredible marketing angles here is that big tech has managed to rebrand the laws with their own preferred, and loaded terminology, and push that to the point that conversations around the law define it by the term they chose.

However, if you want to steal their value entirely, as Google Search often does with increasing frequency, Google is going to have to pay for it.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by cromwellian on Thursday February 14, 2019 @11:23PM (#19168444)
There's no copyright for factual data, and if the entire value proposition of your site can be summarized in two sentences, you've got a problem. Especially since Wikis have also been collecting this data, for example, WikiNetworth, also Wikipedia itself often has net-worth info on celebrities.

This doesn't seem like a compelling use case for onerous regulation that can do far more harm than good.

I personally think anything published on the internet that's not behind a paywall is ripe for forking and summarizing. It may be nice and polite to ask permission, but to me, the raison d'etre of the web, is that it's a communal forest for permissionless innovaton. We all harvest from it, and we should all give back to it, so that the next group of people can benefit from it.

CelebrityNetWorth themselves are guilty of taking data without acknowledgement. They don't list their sources and what information they're republishing, much of which comes from industry trade journals, where beat reporters zealously follow celebrities and publish everything from houses, cars, or other luxury goods they own, to any new publishing, actoring, or singing contracts they've acquired.

The internet should be a resource for everyone on the the planet to harvest, filter, and remix, reinterpret, and republish, and I feel like excessive copyright on these transformations violates that spirit. Not many people may share my position, but I grew up on the internet from the 80s, before large scale commercial activity arrived, back when 'information wants to be free' was the mantra, and I've never really given up on that ideal.

Eventually, lots of people are going to be turning loss NLP AIs on text all over the internet and extracting out Q&A systems. In ten years from now, it won't just be Google's fact box you have to worry about, they'll be tons of these agents around. Europe is still tooling their policy for a pre-AI world.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by mrep on Thursday February 14, 2019 @08:05AM (#19161542)
> If these companies want to continue to make money (they do), they'll figure out a way to make it work.

Tell that to the Spanish people who used to use Google news or the Europeans that are now getting 451 errors on various websites.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by cromwellian on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @08:30PM (#19158916)
The insane near infinite copyright is what's ridiculous (patents too).

I'd say put a 5-7 or 14 year duration on works like the original copyright laws had. These constant extensions are the real absurdity.

Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday February 13, 2019 @10:44PM (#19159458)
I don't disagree with you on this point. But the fact that our copyright system went a little overboard isn't justification to allow extremely evil companies blanket immunity from prosecution for the wide variety of abuses certain major tech companies profit in. Section 230 in particular has been trotted out as a defense in far too many scenarios where no defense should have been adequate.
Re:The text of Article 13 and the EU Copyright Directive has... by cromwellian on Thursday February 14, 2019 @05:17AM (#19160835)
Extremely evil? For links with text summarization algorithms that extract a sentence or two?

As I said in another post, as if late 2016 (the latest article I could find), no analyst could determine if YouTube ever made a profit, and there's some suspicion it still is losing money because Google won't break out its earnings in quarterly reports.

And YouTube one could early at least offers a system that lets content creators takedown content, or monetize it.

In light of this, the Chapter 13 stuff is vast overkill, and quite obviously, regulatory capture.