News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by chrisseaton on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @06:58AM (#19142786)
Of course the problem is how are Google and Facebook supposed to determine what 'trustworthy, reliable news' is. If you read the Government report behind this article you'll find that the Government's only suggestion seems to be literally 'you know it when you see it.' Seems very open to abuse and 'knowing' that news you don't like is untrustworthy 'when you see it'.

I think society in general is nearly at the point of basically declaring bankruptcy on trustworthiness of journalism and are treating everything as having an agenda. But then how can you fund news with an agenda from public funds?

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by entity345 on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @11:11AM (#19144684)
Yes, they should know it when they see it. And if they happen to make a mistake the government will helpfully tell them what to correct.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by 2019ideas on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @12:18PM (#19145400)
>the government will helpfully tell them what to correct.

>the government

There is no 'the government'.

The government is an entity of elected and unelected people. They have their own bias, their own friends, their own wants.

I have stopped using Facebook because it sucks, but if the government sucks, I am forced to use them.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by entity345 on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @12:33PM (#19145561)
The government will be in touch to help you correct your thoughts.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by kerng on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @10:44AM (#19144401)
Do make ad publishing more difficult- eg. Maybe large scale targeted individual ads to manipulate people (with targeted precision) should be illegal? Or ads that combine more then 1 selection criteria or whatever- the status quo is not defendable.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by pjc50 on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @11:02AM (#19144598)
Political advertising on the internet in the UK should at least be made to follow the print advertising rules (imprint+cost accounting), and ideally the TV advertising rules (banned except for PPB)
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by strictnein on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @11:01AM (#19144587)
All ads are designed to manipulate people. It's literally the purpose of advertising.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by kerng on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @11:31AM (#19144908)
Correct, but not all ads can be customized for individuals at scale - that's the difference and that's the problem.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by strictnein on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @09:28PM (#19149818)
There's been customized mass mailings for a long time. Google and FB weren't the first to collect lots of information about consumers and sell it to advertisers.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by shaki-dora on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @07:36AM (#19142970)
The BBC is without a doubt more trustworthy than the average story that goes viral on Facebook. Since the former is a product established by that government (with some indirection to remove it at least from day-to-day political influence), it seems not to be quite as impossible to judge the quality of a publishing operation as you make it out to be.

Yes, people will invariably point to some instances of the BBC receiving flak for errors in judgement (edit: see below for examples). But if we collectively can no longer agree that there is a difference between the BBC and, say, infowars, then we have lost anyway, and all that’s left is to gleefully watch civilization circling the drain.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by pjc50 on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @08:04AM (#19143108)
Well... while the BBC are clearly not Infowars, they have a longstanding problem with their current affairs coverage optimising for "controversy", by giving undue prominence to far right views. Latest iteration of this: https://twitter.com/cstross/status/1095279763009220609 / https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/bbc-question-time-inv...

My personal opinion is that the BBC's political coverage was thoroughly kneecapped after the Hutton Inquiry ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutton_Inquiry ) at which point they decided to surrender to the government line rather than fight suspected falsehoods.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by arethuza on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @08:53AM (#19143404)
I'm generally a big supporter of the BBC but I really noticed how biased they were in the run up to the Scottish independence referendum - they really are quite conservative (note the small c) about some areas and that came across very strongly in a lot of reporting.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by chrisseaton on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @09:19AM (#19143614)
I'm also generally a big supporter of the BBC, but I think their left bias is extremely apparent on their radio content. It must be down to internal culture in different offices, because the bias is different in different parts of the Corporation. Might be a diversity problem in hiring?
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by arethuza on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @09:28AM (#19143681)
Those on the left (e.g. Owen Jones) think it is a pillar of The Establishment and those on the right think it is has a left-liberal bias.

I guess it is doing something right!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC#21st_cent...

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by chrisseaton on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @09:35AM (#19143733)
Can't we aim for 'not appearing biased to anyone' rather than 'appearing biased to everyone'?

I think the simultaneous accusations of both left and right bias are because separate parts of the Corporation are biased in this way. If you sum those biases then yes maybe it sums to zero, but I'd rather the individual parts were not biased at all.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @11:35AM (#19144959)
I don't think politics can be made to work like that.

Politics is about rhetoric, persuasion, spin and - if you can get away with it - outright lies, smears, and distortions.

Claiming that reporting is biased, when in fact it's merely objective but unfavourable, is an absolutely standard weapon in the arsenal of spin.

The only way to attempt to enforce a lack of bias would be to have independent editorial oversight - much like the journalistic equivalent of an independent judiciary.

The Board of Trustees used to attempt that, but the financial reality is that the BBC gets most of its funding from the government, and so is always vulnerable to financial pressures.

IMO lack of access to "clean" unspun fact-based reporting is probably the number one political problem of the moment. Knowingly lying to the public or attempting to influence opinion for personal/political gain should be as much of a crime as dumping asbestos in a school yard.

But currently the political system relies on dishonesty to operate. It's essentially built on denying facts and replacing them with expedient lies, emotional manipulations, and fake "explanations" of why things are the way they are.

So you can't solve one problem without solving the other. And that's a huge, huge challenge.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by pjc50 on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @10:07AM (#19144025)
This could also mean that their coverage is getting less accurate overall. It's not a one-dimensional space (left/right), more like a multidimentional (left/right,accurate/inaccurate,...) space. It serves nobody to be in the "centrist/inaccurate" spot on that graph.

BBC4 documentaries and things like Arena remain amazing, so they can do quality if they want to and it's not overwhelmingly a cost matter. It's more like populism vs Reithianism, and if the BBC isn't Reithian it will end up not existing.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @11:22AM (#19144799)
The BBC was recently reorganised, and the one thing you won't find anywhere in the new Board is political diversity.

It's Tory through and through, and apparently unapologetically so.

See also:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourbeeb/tim-holmes/is-question...

That's just one example from a list that is becoming worryingly long now.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by UpperBodyEimi on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @10:36AM (#19144305)
I'm curious about this. What specifically did you feel they were biased on in regards to the Scottish independence referendum? Do you have any links?
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by pjc50 on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @11:00AM (#19144575)
Not the BBC, but you've reminded me about my least favorite bit of "fake" "news" from the Indyref: the government's Buzzfeed propaganda account. https://www.buzzfeed.com/youdecide2014

Apparently there were "no costs" associated with this, which is even harder to understand. https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-ques...

Would probably make a good test case for anyone's "fake news" detectors.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by UpperBodyEimi on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @11:33AM (#19144931)
Most of the points linked in the buzzfeed myths article are linked to gov.uk sources. Do you feel that these sources are themselves propaganda? I'm not sure which of the points can be confirmed or debunked now except maybe for the oil revenue one.

As for the second article, how to spend your extra £1,000, yes, that one is atrocious.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by chrisseaton on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @07:47AM (#19143016)
> it seems not to be quite as impossible to judge the quality of a publishing operation as you make it out to be

I agree the BBC is more trustworthy than other sources. But if we're talking legislation how do we write a rule for that? Do we literally legislate 'the BBC, the Telegraph, ... are trustworthy'? Or do we write a qualitative test? But then what is the test? As I said the best idea at the moment seems to be literally 'you know it when you see it'. Which doesn't work.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by shaki-dora on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @08:08AM (#19143135)
One tree is not a forest. A million trees is a forest. Nobody can tell you which single tree delineates the difference. That doesn’t stop us from calling a tree a tree and a forest a forest.

The tech community has this idea that it’s impossible to make laws affecting such concepts that cannot easily be expressed as an algorithm giving boolean answers. But in reality, that’s exactly what jurisprudence does for a living. Otherwise there would be no need for lawyers and judges and juries.

The “I know it when I see it” quote is, obviously, one coined by a judge, and a supreme one at that. It became famous for both being somewhat true, and for leaving us wanting for something better. And even though the definition of pornography has somewhat advanced since then, and become somewhat less relevant, there still is a gray area: some gangbang on pornhub is probably porn. A bag of Doritos is not porn. In between are the image of Kim Phuc, Michelangelo’s David, and many a work of art. But the existence of that gray area does not negate the possibility to definitively say that the bag of Doritos is not porn, as far as the law is concerned.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by RHSeeger on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @09:09AM (#19143527)
The problem with laws that allow for "I'll know it when I see it" is that - The need to be vague/broad enough to allow anything that could be <thing> to be classified as <thing> under the law - The government actors are well know for acting in bad faith, ruining the lives of people that did nothing wrong because the law allowed for it.

A teenage couple tried as adults for child pornography because they sent each other naked pictures of themselves. That is clearly not what the law intended, but the state went after them for it anyways.

Vague/overly-broad laws can be abused. Any law that can be abused will be abused.

Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by sbmassey on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @08:17AM (#19143185)
Legislation requires more precise definitions if it is to be useful in court.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by pjc50 on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @08:27AM (#19143245)
You'd be amazed how much legislation just says "reasonable" and leaves the court to the details.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by C1sc0cat on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @10:46AM (#19144423)
As some one said to me "as so many MP's are lawyers its a favour (billing opportunity ) for their lawyer friends"
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by shaki-dora on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @08:20AM (#19143204)
There are quite a few laws concerning both pornography and forests, and civilization has steadfastly refused to die.
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by timthorn on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @08:21AM (#19143213)
The view of the Man on the Clapham Omnibus is useful in court but not very precise...
Re:Google and Facebook should be regulated for news content,... by Asooka on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @08:26AM (#19143242)
The solution generally is "we form a department that employs qualified people and scores entities on quality X", then the law says "entities with less than 50% X as determined by the department for X scores shall not appear on the first page of results". As a programmer you should know that all problems can be solved with enough levels of indirection :) .