News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by wand3r on Saturday February 09, 2019 @03:30PM (#19124412)
I imagine the comments will be either: its your fault, dont trust google and have a strategy that totally relies on a party out of your control, & in this day and age you have to do this and this happened to me with google/apple/paypal/microsoft etc.

While i think relying on google (or a single platform) is dangerous, these platforms really need to address these issues. While their isn’t much competition, they are really eroding developer trust. Developers may decide to build for an entirely different platform or work on a different idea that is outside mobile. This ultimately hurts app stores and this these platforms.

Short term a small amount of discontent doesnt matter, but it could reach a tipping point.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by Wowfunhappy on Saturday February 09, 2019 @03:36PM (#19124436)
> Dont trust google and [don't] have a strategy that totally relies on a party out of your control

Last week, much of Google and Facebook were brought to a halt after Apple revoked their enterprise certificates. While the circumstances justified Apple's actions in this case, the fact remains that even Google and Facebook are largely reliant on another large company. If Apple completely banned all Facebook apps from the app store tomorrow... well, Facebook would probably survive, but it would be a serious blow.

I don't see how you can not be reliant on Apple/Google.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by coliveira on Saturday February 09, 2019 @03:44PM (#19124490)
> I don't see how you can not be reliant on Apple/Google.

This is the very definition of a monopoly, isn't it? If the government was working properly, it would be ready to break up these companies, as well in other areas of oligopoly such as oil and banking.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by j88439h84 on Saturday February 09, 2019 @04:07PM (#19124636)
Well, there's two of them.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by sundvor on Saturday February 09, 2019 @04:55PM (#19124880)
Duopoly, then ogliopoly after that.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by usaphp on Saturday February 09, 2019 @04:23PM (#19124728)
> MONOpoly

> thESE companIES

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by ashelmire on Saturday February 09, 2019 @04:45PM (#19124834)
Antitrust covers market manipulation and coercion though, which you could easily argue these companies have (monopoly over certain platforms such as the iPhone; magically identical pricing).
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by jjeaff on Saturday February 09, 2019 @05:27PM (#19125081)
I'm not so sure Facebook could survive. At least, assuming they were not able to get some alternatives in place fast and even then, it would not continue to be the same company it is today. FB gets 85% of their revenue from mobile ads. I haven't seen the breakdown, but I'm guessing based on other stats I've seen that way more than half of that comes from iOS. If they were banned from the app store, it would be catastrophic.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by forty on Saturday February 09, 2019 @04:04PM (#19124623)
I guess it would hurt Apple quite a lot as well, as I guess many users use their Apple products mainly to use Facebook's apps...
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by grigjd3 on Saturday February 09, 2019 @04:45PM (#19124832)
For most of my family and friends, their smart phones may as well be designated Facebook portals. As sick as that makes me, that is the world we live in.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by m-p-3 on Saturday February 09, 2019 @04:03PM (#19124616)
> have a strategy that totally relies on a party out of your control

If it's possible to implement the app as a PWA sure, but then discoverability becomes an issue.

Sadly, App Stores are a natural monopoly and everyone expect them to be fair but they clearly can't.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by sverhagen on Saturday February 09, 2019 @06:39PM (#19125426)
Are they a natural monopoly by choice or by necessity? Not sure what "natural" means, here. I could imagine some sort of federation that would make them less of a monopoly, understandably not Google's choice, though.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by pas on Saturday February 09, 2019 @08:08PM (#19125788)
Natural probably means that for a given mobile platform it's natural - due to network effects and other market forces (e.g. the platform owner heavily subsidizing/supporting their choice of store) - for one store to emerge as a monopoly.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by bad_user on Saturday February 09, 2019 @03:35PM (#19124431)
> “This ultimately hurts app stores”

Good, app stores need to die.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by ben_w on Saturday February 09, 2019 @03:46PM (#19124502)
App stores are the least-unreliable mechanism I have to trust executable code. I don’t even enable JavaScript by default.

Do you have an alternative trust mechanism that can’t be subverted via, for example, algorithmic voting?

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by 43920 on Saturday February 09, 2019 @04:48PM (#19124846)
I think there's a couple solutions to this. First, "trust" should depend on your own evaluation of the developer, based on metrics like how long their app has existed, customer reviews, what protections they have around handling data, etc. You have the ability to do a much better job evaluating trust than Apple or Google are likely to. But even beyond that, sandboxing needs to be made effective enough that even if you do install a malicious app, it doesn't matter. iOS actually does a really good job of this - apps are contained in their own sandbox, and have to get your permission to access any sensitive data, which you can easily choose to accept or deny. There are also limits on resources, and apps can't do much to your system unless you actively open them, which makes it really easy to escape from a bad app.

I know you mentioned disabling javascript, but browsers are also a really good example of this. Browsers run your code in a sandbox, and the rendering engine itself is sandboxed in case of bugs. As a result, you can pretty much visit any random website and know that it won't compromise your system - as far as I know, there haven't been any widespread attacks using browser vulnerabilities since sandoxing was introduced (except maybe Internet Explorer, which doesn't really count). The worst that can happen is that a browser tab starts using too many resources or doing something annoying (like autoplaying a video), and you can just close the tab and make it go away.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by sonnyblarney on Saturday February 09, 2019 @05:49PM (#19125191)
""trust" should depend on your own evaluation of the developer, based on metrics like how long their app has existed, customer reviews, what protections they have around handling data, etc. You have the ability to do a much better job evaluating trust than Apple or Google are likely to."

Wow - no, we do not have the ability to ascertain the overall trustworthiness of a dev, certainly not better than Google or Apple.

Reviews can be faked, and 'how long their app has existed' is not a very good measure of anything. Their T&C's on 'protections' don't mean anything if they are not already trustworthy.

So unfortunately, this is one of the valuable things that AppStores can provide.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by 43920 on Sunday February 10, 2019 @01:44AM (#19126655)
Assuming the developer has been in business for a significant amount of time, there are a lot of signals that help tell you whether an app is legit or not. As a random example, if I look for information aout Overcast (a fairly successful app from an independent developer), I get:

* A bunch of reviews from users, very few of which sound fake: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/overcast/id888422857

* Articles about the app from well-known websites: https://9to5mac.com/2018/04/29/overcast-versus-apple-podcast...

* A wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overcast_(app)

* Information about the developer: https://marco.org/about

You could fake all of this, but it would be really difficult and expensive, and probably wouldn't work in the long-term.

It's true that for a brand-new app from an unknown developer, it's difficult to say what their intentions are, but Google and Apple don't really have any more information to go off of than you do regarding that - at best, they likely have the developer's contact information, but you can probably find that yourself as well. Additionally, the nice thing about sandboxing and permissions is that you don't really have to trust the developer in order to run an app. For example, the other day I was looking for a protractor app that would give me measurements in tenths of a degree, and I found this app [1]. Aside from a few reviews (which, as you said, could easily be fake), I know absolutely nothing about this developer - for all I know, they could be trying to steal all my data. But because iOS sandboxes everthing, they won't actually be able to access any of my data or do anything bad unless I approve it, and if I don't like the app, I can press one button and get rid of it. As a result, I can feel comfortable installing the app anyway, even if I don't trust the developer.

[1] https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/angle-pro/id750327028

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by sonnyblarney on Sunday February 10, 2019 @02:15AM (#19126712)
"but Google and Apple don't really have any more information to go off of than you do regarding that "

Apple requires people to provide a business number among other things, and they have substantial ability to 'dig in' to a developers background.

Users have zero interest in this, and nobody has time to do some big investigation into some company for the sake of some app.

The whole point of the app stores are to filter through the crap for us and give us some idea of what's good and what's not.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by Tassels on Sunday February 10, 2019 @11:46AM (#19128490)
I mean, both Google and Apple analyze apps for any sort of detectable malicious libraries/code. It's not perfect by any means, but it's something.

I don't know why this business got banned. I assume it's due to the outsourced dev they used. I doubt they're technically competent and reviewed the app themselves, so who knows what kind of bullshit the dev stuffed in their or their other apps.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by yoz-y on Saturday February 09, 2019 @06:44PM (#19125438)
Disregarding security, the app stores also (try) to filter out crap applications, blatant rip-offs, applications that steal your data or ruin your battery by mining bit coins. These things usually don't really need to circumvent the sandbox. One can of course argue that the stores don't really do a great job policing the right things but they are efficient to some degree (e.g.: the recent facebook spy-vpn fiasco).

One other thing is that, at least in Apple app store, the review process catches use of private APIs which are in theory harmless but are not considered stable and could cause the application to crash if a minor update changes the way they work.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by 43920 on Sunday February 10, 2019 @01:26AM (#19126613)
If an application is a "blatant rip-off", users are most likely going to realize it and uninstall it/stop spending money on it/dispute it with their credit card company, which should eventually stop the scammers from making money. And even before you install the app, you can still read reviews from other people to determine whether it's trustworthy.

Excessive resource usage is already pretty easy to avoid - iOS will limit resource usage when an app is in the background, and show you which apps are using a lot of battery power so you can uninstall them. I would imagine Apple could expand this more by showing an unobtrustive notification somewhere with a message like "____ is reducing your battery life, would you like to stop it?"

Regarding private API's, if Apple's position is that third-party apps are not allowed to use them, they should just stop exposing these APIs to other apps completely.

Solving privacy issues is tricker, at least in the short term, although I think this should eventually be handled by government regulation. Assuming we can get fair and well-written regulation (which, to be fair, is a big if!), we could have clearly-documented rules that apply equally to all market participants, and aren't quite as clearly biased based on commercial incentives (although there would still be an indirect effect due to lobbying).

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by Wowfunhappy on Saturday February 09, 2019 @09:01PM (#19125960)
> as far as I know, there haven't been any widespread attacks using browser vulnerabilities since sandoxing was introduced (except maybe Internet Explorer, which doesn't really count).

While non-malicious, jailbreakme.com seems to come back once every few years or so.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by 43920 on Sunday February 10, 2019 @01:11AM (#19126578)
That's a good point, although the only recent exploit (in 2017) depended on a combination of 3 vulnerabilities that had already been fixed over a year and a half ago when the exploit was released.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by dvfjsdhgfv on Saturday February 09, 2019 @03:55PM (#19124572)
A generalization is not necessary here, for me there is a huge difference between Apple's App Store and Google Play. The former actually has real people behind it that you can talk to, also on the phone, and who are really friendly and will reach out to help you fix problems. Also, they do really review the app, obviously using automated tools, but still there's some human involvement. Google tries to be smarter than everyone else but they're not. Many people have this love-hate relationship with them, but recently there's less and less love in it.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by grawprog on Saturday February 09, 2019 @03:48PM (#19124513)
>App stores are the least-unreliable mechanism I have to trust executable code.

And yet almost weekly I read a new story about malicious apps being found in app stores. Like this one posted today:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/googl...

Personally I trust things from app stores about as much as I trust random things from the web.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by ben_w on Saturday February 09, 2019 @03:50PM (#19124533)
Which is why I phrased it “least unreliable” rather than “best”.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by grawprog on Saturday February 09, 2019 @05:44PM (#19125164)
Considering there aren't many totally reliable ways to avoid shady software save going through the source of a program line by line and verifying it yourself, least-unrealiable sort of comes across as best.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by drcharris on Saturday February 09, 2019 @07:11PM (#19125563)
The trust you have in an app store is because you believe in their processes for auditing apps. But the two do not need to be linked.

Google Play Protect, for instance, works just fine on sideloaded apps or apps downloaded from other stores.

The distribution and marketing channel don't need to be the same as the trust mechanism. There's a whole anti-malware industry out there that can do the latter, and could easily do as good a job as Google currently do.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by AnaniasAnanas on Saturday February 09, 2019 @05:14PM (#19125002)
> App stores are the least-unreliable mechanism I have to trust executable code

More so than the repositories that various linux distros use? I honestly think that something like apt for android would be a much better solution - too bad, it will never happen because it would mess with google's monopoly.

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by GordonS on Saturday February 09, 2019 @05:58PM (#19125237)
There are Play Store alternatives, such as F-Droid, Aptoide and ApkMirror.

But it still comes down to discoverability and trust - you need to know about and trust these alternatives, and you need to change a setting on your device to "allow untrusted sources".

Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by yoz-y on Saturday February 09, 2019 @06:38PM (#19125421)
Distro repositories are great but they are several orders of magnitudes smaller than the app stores. Ubuntu has ~50k packages available, app stores host millions of apps. Package maintainers to a great job but I don't think this model can scale up.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by SamReidHughes on Saturday February 09, 2019 @03:51PM (#19124541)
I think you should be crediting sandboxing for that.
Re:Google terminated our business via our Google Play Develo... by lazyjones on Saturday February 09, 2019 @10:59PM (#19126300)
> App stores are the least-unreliable mechanism I have to trust executable code. I don’t even enable JavaScript by default.

How did the rest of us ever live through the 80s and 90s when we had to purchase software from physical stores based on reviews in magazines and word-of-mouth...

More seriously, the PC software industry works well without app stores, download sites usually check for malware to some extent and successful publishers earn trust by not screwing over their users.