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Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by staticassertion on Monday February 04, 2019 @10:48PM (#19082892)
OK. So you connect to Postgres on RDS - cloud agnostic.

You connect to S3, and:

a) You can build an abstraction service if you care about vendor lock-in so much

b) It has an API that plenty of open source projects are compatible with (I believe Google's storage is compatible as well)

Maybe you use something like SQS or SNS. Bummer, those are gonna "lock you in". But I've personally migrated between queueing solutions before and it shouldn't be a big deal to do so.

It's really easy to avoid lockin, lambda really doesn't make it any harder than EC2 at all.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by redisman on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @01:05AM (#19083309)
As long as you write your own wrappers to the SDKs changing cloud providers is definitely doable. We started full AWS stack with Lambda but have now been slowly refactoring our way into more cloud-provider agnostic direction. It's definitely not an existential threat level lock-in. Serverless technology is only starting out still and I'm pretty sure 5 years from now Lambda won't be the go-to platform anyway. Plus honestly we've learned so much from the first big project on Lambda that writing the next one with all of that in mind will be pretty great (and agnostic).
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by staticassertion on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @01:52AM (#19083466)
I don't believe that writing wrappers is particularly important, though I think that anyone who uses SQS is likely to build an abstraction over it at some point (as with all lower level communication protocols, at some point you build a "client library" that's more specific).

As I said, at least in the cases of your database and your storage, being cloud-agnostic is trivial. Managed postgres is easy to migrate from, S3 shouldn't be hard to migrate from either.

Certainly lambda doesn't impact this too much.

> Serverless technology is only starting out still and I'm pretty sure 5 years from now Lambda won't be the go-to platform anyway. Plus honestly we've learned so much from the first big project on Lambda that writing the next one with all of that in mind will be pretty great (and agnostic).

I realize it isn't entirely on-topic, but could you elaborate? I'm curious to hear more about your opinion on this, I'm not sure what the future of Serverless is.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by scarface74 on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @01:28AM (#19083396)
And that goes back to developers using the repository pattern because one day the CTO might decide that they want to get rid of their 6-7 figure Oracle installation and migrate to Postgres. There is a lot more to migrating infrastructure at scale than writing a few facades.

Heck, consultants get paid lots of money just to do a lift and shift and migrate a bunch of VMWare images from on prem to AWS.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by cs02rm0 on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @02:03AM (#19083494)
a) You can build an abstraction service if you care about vendor lock-in so much ... It's really easy to avoid lockin, lambda really doesn't make it any harder than EC2 at all.

Yes, you can build an abstraction layer. And maintain it. And hope that you don't get feature divergence underneath it.

That's really, really expensive.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by staticassertion on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @02:17AM (#19083537)
I don't see how you could have missed (b).
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by cs02rm0 on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @03:59AM (#19083845)
I don't see why you think I have.
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by scarface74 on Monday February 04, 2019 @11:36PM (#19083049)
Have you ever asked the business folks or your investors did they care about your “levels of abstraction”? What looks better on your review? I created a facade over our messaging system or I implemented this feature that brought in revenue/increased customer retention/got us closer to the upper right quadrant of Gartner’s magic square?
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by wisswazz on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @01:27AM (#19083393)
Why should they care, or even be in the loop for such a decision? You don’t ask your real estate agent on advice for fixing you electrical system I guess?
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by scarface74 on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @01:37AM (#19083430)
Of course your business folks care whether you are spending time adding business value and helping them make money.

I’ve had to explain to a CTO before why I had my team spending time on a CI/CD pipeline. Even now that I have a CTO whose idea of “writing requirements” is throwing together a Python proof of concept script and playing with Athena (writing Sql against a large CSV file stored in S3), I still better be able to articulate business value for any technological tangents I am going on.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by wisswazz on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @03:01AM (#19083674)
Sure. Agree totally, maybe I misread your previous comment a bit. What I meant is that run-of-the-mill business folks do not necessarily know how business value is created in terms of code and architecture.
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by cthalupa on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @09:40AM (#19085610)
I don't know of any business where they wouldn't be involved. Not in the "Let's talk directly about implementation details" way, but in the "Driving product development and roadmap" and "ascertaining value to our customers" way.

Any time spent on work that doesn't directly create value for customers is work that the business should be weighing in on. I'm not saying that you should never spend any time doing anything else - but these are trade offs that the product manager should be involved in, and one of their primary jobs is being able to weight the technical and business realities and figuring out where resources should be going.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by yzmtf2008 on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @10:42PM (#19102823)
Both. It's why larger companies have infrastructure teams.
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by staticassertion on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @12:08AM (#19083140)
I'm not sure I see your point. What is it you think I'm advocating for?

My only point is that vendor lock-in is not a significant issue on AWS, and that it requires virtually no effort to avoid it.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by tomnipotent on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @12:35AM (#19083203)
> and that it requires virtually no effort to avoid it

Of course it requires effort. A lot of effort, not to mention headcount. The entire value of cloud-managed services is what it saves you vs. the trade-off's, and it's disingenuous to pretend that's not the case.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by staticassertion on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @12:50AM (#19083249)
Sorry, I don't agree, and I feel like I provided evidence why in my first post. To summarize, choosing services like Postgres and S3 doesn't lock you in. SQS and SNS might, but I think it's an exaggerated cost, and that has nothing to do with Lambdas (EC2 instances are just as likely to use SQS or SNS - moreso, given that SQS wasn't supported for Lambdas until recently).

There are tradeoffs, of course. Cost at scale is the really big one - at some point it's cheaper to bring ops/ hardware in-house.

I just don't agree that lock-in is a huge issue, and I really disagree with the idea that lambdas make lock-in harder.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by tomnipotent on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @02:29AM (#19083568)
There's a big difference between AWS RDS and self-managed. Huge difference.

- DBA's & DevOps

- Procurement management & spare parts

- Colocation w/multihoming

- Leasing agreements

- Paying for power usage

- Disaster recovery plan

- CapEx & depreciation

- Uncomfortable meetings with my CFO explaining why things are expensive

- Hardware failure

- Scaling up/out

Not even worth going on because the point is obvious. Going "all in" reduces cost and allows more time to be focused on revenue-generating work. The "migration" boogeyman is just that, something we tell other programmers to scare them around the campfire. You're going to be hard-pressed finding horror stories of companies in "cloud lock-in" that isn't a consultant trying to sell you something.

> at some point it's cheaper to bring ops/ hardware in-house.

It depends. It's not always scale issue, and with all things it starts with a model and collaboration with your finance team.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by scarface74 on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @12:54AM (#19083274)
Well, what scale would that be? Larger than Netflix?
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by staticassertion on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @01:48AM (#19083455)
While I could probably answer that, I don't think it's relevant to my central point - that lock-in is not as big of a deal as it's portrayed as, and that lambdas do not make the problem considerably worse.
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by pathseeker on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @01:34AM (#19083420)
The vast majority of Netflix's traffic is video and it's video is not served by Amazon.

Using a company that bypasses Amazon for 99.999% of its traffic isn't exactly an Amazon success story.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by parasubvert on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @07:05AM (#19084552)
That’s an incredibly ignorant and misleading statement. It’s sort of like saying a database isn’t valuable because 99.999% of requests hit the cache, and not the disk.

Everything was built on Amazon and video is largely hosted on S3. Yes, there’s a large CDN in the mix too. That doesn’t take away from the achievement.

Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by scarface74 on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @02:24AM (#19083555)
Well, what do you think Netflix is doing to be AWS’s largest customer? Have you seen any of their presentations on YouTube from AWS reinvent? Where do you think they encode the videos? Handle sign ins, etc?
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by late2part on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @01:15AM (#19083342)
Re:“Lambda and serverless is one of the worst forms of propr... by scarface74 on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @01:20AM (#19083361)
That’s just the CDN. Netflix is still by far AWS’s biggest customer and its compute is still on AWS. I don’t think most companies are going to be setting up colos at ISPs around the world.