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Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by jplayer01 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @10:59AM (#19036122)
Feels like the author writes way too much without saying anything, then ends the article without a real conclusion.

I guess maybe "Black scientists are in the best position to understand what is so broken about the ideas of Watson and his army." was what he was working towards, but that seems like an extraordinarily weak point to make.

Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by beat on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @11:06AM (#19036205)
The strong point was embedded in the text... that "science" becomes a cover for plain old prejudice. And even a bright mind like James Watson can fall for it.

edit: If you're one of the downvoters who think my argument is weak, google "phrenology". In the 19th century, it was widely believed that intelligence and character could be measured by the size and shape of the skull - with Europeans on top, of course, and non-white races showing "deformities" that reduce their intelligence and morality. It's totally debunked now, but that's what "scientific racism" sounded like not that long ago. So when I see DNA "science" used to justify racism, I think of phrenology, and think of the possibility that otherwise smart and well-meaning people are using "science" as a shield for their own prejudice.

Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by jplayer01 on Thursday January 31, 2019 @05:00AM (#19043695)
It feels prejudiced to me that only black scientists are supposedly able to recognize and defend us all against racism. It's patently absurd. Yes, science, as with any other faith-based belief system, has its proponents who will use it to further their own agenda and gather like-minded people. Yes, this subverts science and its principles. No, this doesn't mean the only people capable of seeing it are black. No, science isn't bad and scientists as a whole aren't bad. He didn't need to write pages of fluff to make a point that he barely ever got around to mentioning.
Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by beat on Thursday January 31, 2019 @10:21AM (#19045329)
And that's not what the article says, either. Black scientists are in a peculiar place to recognize it, because it actually happens to them. One of the reasons whites don't see so much racism in society is because it's something that happens to someone else.

I saw this same article from a different direction, through an old friend of mine who happens to be black (and a large, dark-skinned man) and was a doctor. He was totally bonding on the article, and quite upset about the situation it describes, something he's experienced himself. And it reminded me of when he was in med school, back in the early '90s. He was in his dorm, doing his laundry, and someone assumed he was stealing laundry and called the cops. He was beaten by the cops enough to break ribs, and of course arrested. For doing laundry in his own dorm while black.

Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by dmitriid on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @11:11AM (#19036263)
Because the topic of genes and race is too sensitive for many reasons, both right and wrong.

However, we should really be talking about this.

- We know that genes affect our physical appearance (hence races are distinguishable between each other).

- We know that different races have genetic predisposition to certain diseases (sickle cell disease and people of African ancestry, for example).

- We know that genetic studies reveal fascinating history of how people migrated across the globe and how nations are mostly a fictional invention.

- We know how genes affect anything from eye color to horrible conditions like Roberts syndrome

But we are too afraid to talk about anything beyond these few topics, and how genetic differences between races affect (negatively, neutrally, or positively) people of these races.

Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by porpoisely on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @11:29AM (#19036464)
Obviously topics on race need to be covered carefully and sensitively given the destructive history of race, science and politics. However, it still should be covered, investigated and the facts accepted.

Sadly, in today's environment, science that conflicts with certain agenda have become blasphemy. It's reminiscent of the anti-science and anti-intellectual days of geocentrism and the catholic church. It's amazing how one of the great scientists of our time has been "excommunicated" and attacked mercilessly for his blashphemy. The strange thing is that the media is using racism themselves to attack the guy.

Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by panarky on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @11:51AM (#19036730)
> science that conflicts with certain agenda have become blasphemy

How does that relate to this article?

In your assessment, are Watson's claims about race well supported by good science?

Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by rflrob on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @12:29PM (#19037148)
> But we are too afraid to talk about anything beyond these few topics[...]

I’ll grant that serious scientists are cautious about this, but what’s your evidence that the caution has gone too far?

We know that traits like intelligence are affected by hundreds or thousands of distinct genetic loci. We know that traits like measured intelligence are hugely dependent on non-genetic factors like diet, environmental exposures, and poverty (and that these factors aren’t orthogonal to each other). And we also know that scientists in the past have made too-sweeping claims that in the light of modern data are considered not just wrong, but embarrassingly so, and that these claims have been weaponized by overzealous lay people. Given all that, I think it’s quite reasonable to be very cautious about making claims that there’s not great evidence to support.

Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by jplayer01 on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @11:24AM (#19036402)
I agree. Any attempt to talk about genes outside of a narrow band is automatically considered racist or sexist. Productive, interesting discussion is killed off before it can begin, which is such an intellectually stifling and medieval way to handle these topics.
Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by panarky on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @12:28PM (#19037133)
> we should really be talking about this

We don't really know how DNA affects cognitive ability in general, much less what if any affect ethnicity or gender has.

We don't know the basics because we can't even define the independent variable. What exactly is "cognitive ability" anyway? The definition of "cognition" is far more social and cultural than physical, so how do you measure it without social and cultural bias?

After we understand cognition, then we can examine how nutrition, education, social interactions, early childhood experiences, and other environmental factors affect it.

That's what we really should be talking about. But it's dangerous and counterproductive to leapfrog our current knowledge by measuring all groups against a socially and culturally biased standard with environmental factors we can't control and that we don't truly understand.

Re:James Watson and the Insidiousness of Scientific Racism by dmitriid on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @12:56PM (#19037423)
> We don't really know how DNA affects cognitive ability in general, much less what if any affect ethnicity or gender has.

That's why we need to study, come up with theories, disprove them, and find better theories. When it comes to race and gender, there's too much stigma attach to even try and come up with incorrect theories.