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Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by raz32dust on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:33AM (#19010745)
This reminds me of the "Do artifacts have politics" paper by Langdon Winner [1]. He argues that technologies have inherent political traits.

Nuclear power is considered to be supportive of autocratic political systems since nuclear power plants need centralized planning and networks to be effective. Solar power is considered democratic since anyone can harness it. It's an interesting paper and definitely worth a read.

On similar lines, I feel internet is a democratizing force, since it allowed anyone to publish data and anyone to consume it, and is (somewhat) difficult to control centrally. AI, on the other hand, is a centralizing force, since the most powerful AI can be managed and powered by the most powerful institutions.

[1] https://www.cc.gatech.edu/~beki/cs4001/Winner.pdf

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by joe_the_user on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:42AM (#19010772)
Indeed, one could consider machine learning an authoritarian technology if given power over individuals. AI's fundamental problem is it winds-up being a "results oriented" approach where individuals characteristics are weighed by black-box systems and the individual is judged without any recourse or even any exact idea what the criteria is.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by trevyn on Sunday January 27, 2019 @06:22AM (#19011307)
Well, we’re judged by human brains every day, which are even more opaque.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by sgt101 on Sunday January 27, 2019 @10:53AM (#19012121)
This is a sorta standard rejoiner.. but other humans should have to account/take responsibility for their decisions, and part of that process is that other humans should judge individuals as individuals which almost by definition machine learned classifiers cannot. ML is great for dealing with massproduced artefacts, or standardised processes, but it's just not the right tool for reasoning over domains that are not full of approximately similar things. That the Chinese government (and Google, and Facebook) think that humans are in that category speaks volumes about them.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by joe_the_user on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:20PM (#19013274)
we’re judged by human brains every day, which are even more opaque.

In modern society, the decisive things determining life-direction are determined by human ostensibly using objective criteria. Educators have conditions for grades, bosses write progress reports, courts use etc. This situation is term bureaucratic society and the rule of law.

Authoritarianism is one kind of interaction that we all know - when an individual can issue orders without recourse. There's everything from abusive bosses to dictators here. It's a common part of human relations too, just a less desirable side.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by pixl97 on Sunday January 27, 2019 @01:35PM (#19013027)
In the long term human brains are input and computationally limited.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by joakinen on Sunday January 27, 2019 @05:57AM (#19011255)
Internet is out of control by citizens. The web was such a democratic space but browsers narrow that space down because they are centralized products. DRM-enabled only (if ever comes) will kill the web.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by hoaw on Sunday January 27, 2019 @06:42AM (#19011350)
Accessible isn't necessarily the same thing as democratic. The future of the Internet was always decided essentially behind closed doors. No surprise that it is now being done at the big companies rather than 'by the public'. Any country could regulate the Internet in a democratic direction if it wanted to, but that isn't very popular from what I have seen.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by sgt101 on Sunday January 27, 2019 @10:49AM (#19012107)
I don't understand - why are browsers centralised?
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by nine_k on Sunday January 27, 2019 @11:07AM (#19012191)
How many major browsers do you know? How hard it is to implement your own? How hard it is to just read and roughly audit the source code? How much control do you have over the features of the browser?
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by sgt101 on Sunday January 27, 2019 @12:20PM (#19012623)
Well, several are open source. I know that they have vast and complex code bases and are extremely hard to understand or modify but it is possible and diverse communities are working on them.

For me the centralisation is at the search engine and the content generation; both have narrowed and narrowed and narrowed.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by chalst on Sunday January 27, 2019 @04:32AM (#19011069)
George Orwell made much the same point in 1945:

http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/ABomb/english/e_abomb

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by buboard on Sunday January 27, 2019 @07:53AM (#19011513)
"ages in which the dominant weapon is expensive or difficult to make will tend to be ages of despotism, whereas when the dominant weapon is cheap and simple, the common people have a chance"

All we need to do is democratize AI. It can be well argued that it is happening.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by Yoric on Sunday January 27, 2019 @11:41AM (#19012392)
So you're thinking the best way to defeat (for some notion of "defeat") a centralizing AI is a myriad of user-controlled AIs (even if they are hosted e.g. on AWS)?

I had never thought of this, but it seems to make sense.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by buboard on Sunday January 27, 2019 @01:23PM (#19012967)
hopefully we re not even at the point where we found the best way to train AIs. it's possible that the field may be revolutionized by new methods.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by Ar-Curunir on Sunday January 27, 2019 @10:48AM (#19012100)
No, training modern enural networks requires a ton of data and a ton of computing power, both of which are available only to the biggest organizations.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by buboard on Sunday January 27, 2019 @11:00AM (#19012154)
We re not talking about Apollo-level investments
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by dev_dull on Sunday January 27, 2019 @12:23PM (#19012638)
A 2nd amendment for “weaponized” AI?

“The right of the people, to code, maintain, and develop weaponized artificial intelligence shall not be infringed.”

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by intended on Sunday January 27, 2019 @08:24AM (#19011581)
Base internet is democratizing at complexity = 1.

The moment complexity on the web goes up, your need for governance structures goes up and the web becomes a force for centralized control of entities on the web: Human or otherwise.

The higher the level of complexity, the better the tools required to manage and analyze data. Therefore the better the tools available to analyze and manage humans.

I guess, if you project this, then the highest levels of the web probably are fully centralized and firewalled networks,.

At some point you have to deal with attackers, inimical and hostile networks and attacks to take over your "stack" of complexity/society. With the internet and high enough complexity, You can finally attack some subset of human behavior, privacy, brains, or information with automation.

The internet is probably the equivalent of flight based damage to fortresses.

And this is before people discuss something like singularity AI.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by fooker on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:53AM (#19010794)
The internet once required a huge amount of centralized resources and infrastructure to be realized.

I don't see why "AI" as we know it now is any different.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by devoply on Sunday January 27, 2019 @03:56AM (#19010960)
The internet allows governments to tightly monitor, as time progresses, all communication... Therefore the internet may be under different governments a tool of immense totalitarian control.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by ivanhoe on Sunday January 27, 2019 @05:00AM (#19011132)
One could argue that it already is...
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by buboard on Sunday January 27, 2019 @07:54AM (#19011516)
You make a case why the private sector should be encouraged to monitor as well.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by sgt101 on Sunday January 27, 2019 @10:54AM (#19012127)
I'm really curious : could you try to make the case here? I'd be very interested in this perspective.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by buboard on Sunday January 27, 2019 @01:21PM (#19012957)
its essentially the same argument that some people make against gun control: to keep government in check
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by sgt101 on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:38PM (#19013376)
Ummhhh, except here I think that this will lead to powerful people dominating the lives of everyone else. I don't see the similarity to gun control - with guns individuals end up having power (or getting shot - I tend to agree with gun control), with surveillance they end up under the thumb of some plutocrat or politician.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by ben_w on Sunday January 27, 2019 @04:16AM (#19011022)
An interesting perspective, however I do not believe that the Internet is democratising.

I regard democracy (and capitalism) as being an industrial-era approximation of solutions to the institution-alignment-problem (analogous to the AI alignment problem, but for governments and corporations). Both of these have their own failure modes; In the case of democracy, the failure mode is that people do not know objective truth, and can be fooled by propaganda. The Internet allowed cheap mass propaganda for as long as spam has existed, and this has become worse as propoganists learned to use internet friendly memes.

If you take away (or corrupt) the electorate’s knowledge, I do not think it is okay to continue to call it “democracy” even if they all still vote.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by emiliobumachar on Sunday January 27, 2019 @04:59AM (#19011129)
None of these effects is new. One could print anything on pamphlets, or shout it in the town square before literacy was widespread.

When searching for that boots quote to put here, I found this reference with excellent 18th century quotes about the issue: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/07/13/truth/

There's the possibility that the internet has made it worse, but that's a theory I've yet to see evidence for. You could spread fake news a day before the election in ancient Rome or Greece, what would stop you? Today at least we have most people doubting candidate cannibalism stories because if they were true they would be on mainstream sites. What did they have back then? It was normal to not have access to a second news source to seek out at reasonable effort for months.

Even with all the garbage out there, I think the cheap mass access to information was a net gain. Lies can be made up on the spot, while the truth must be carefully researched. Being able to put a well-researched rebut on a blog where someone might read it is something, something they didn't have before. Everyone would just go home after the people who could produce information on the spot had shouted it.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by ben_w on Monday January 28, 2019 @04:15AM (#19016138)
Indeed. My apologies for being unclear as you are not the only one to misunderstand me. Obviously the Internet didn’t result in the invention of propaganda, my point was merely that it makes propaganda much easier. It puts the tools of mass propaganda in reach of ordinary people. If you use “democratise” to mean “make equality available to all” (the meaning which I object to), then you could say that it democratises propaganda.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by Amezarak on Monday January 28, 2019 @05:55AM (#19016483)
> It puts the tools of mass propaganda in reach of ordinary people.

But this is exactly what we're saying is not new.

It only appears new to some because the 20th century was characterized by both expensive, government-licensed mass media (radio and television) and by the consolidation of the media industry. These factors had the effect of taking media access away from the common man and giving authority to a new set of gatekeepers, as well as (we've increasingly seen), the government, which the media depends on, and which is also much more easily able to control the output of the media than previously.

In the past, there was an incredible proliferation of newspapers, not by any means all or even mostly owned by the rich, and even the common man could afford to take out an ad or have some pamphlets printed. By doing this he could easily achieve obtain a regional and even a national audience.

And in pre-printing press societies, most non-state news traveled by word of mouth, which was free and could not be controlled by the state except with difficulty. You might object this wasn't mass media, but the objection is moot - one person speaking in the Assembly in Athens was sufficient to move the entire state.

It appears that Internet media is quickly moving toward the 20th century model - owned and controlled by a small contingent of very wealthy men. The difference is that yes, the content is produced by the people, rather than generated by an editor and his staff, but nevertheless, it's clear that with government and established media pressure, social media networks are all too happy to control what opinions are allowed on their platform.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by Amezarak on Sunday January 27, 2019 @11:58AM (#19012518)
Indeed, there is nothing new about this issue at all. It was even one of the arguments used in the Constitutional Convention as to why the new American government needed to be much less democratic than it ended up being.

> Mr. GERRY. The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want virtue, but are the dupes of pretended patriots. In Massts. it had been fully confirmed by experience that they are daily misled into the most baneful measures and opinions by the false reports circulated by designing men, and which no one on the spot can refute. One principal evil arises from the want of due provision for those employed in the administration of Governmt. It would seem to be a maxim of democracy to starve the public servants. He mentioned the popular clamour in Massts. for the reduction of salaries and the attack made on that of the Govr. though secured by the spirit of the Constitution itself. He had he said been too republican heretofore: he was still however republican, but had been taught by experience the danger of the levilling spirit.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/debates_531.asp

Outright propaganda, foreign 'interference', and yellow journalism were extremely common in the era that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were created! The media of the day was substantially less centralized, even a medium-sized town had multiple newspapers, and political pamphlets of all natures were common.

Complaints that the people are voting 'wrong' because they're misinformed by 'designing men' are absolutely nothing new and date back to our earliest democracies. Really, the only interesting part is that the complainants are almost always defending entrenched, powerful interests. In American history, it has always been populist and/or socialist movements decried as the result of a woefully misinformed populace, and it was always analogous movements in e.g., Athens and Rome (the Gracchi, for example.) Propaganda supporting the entrenched rich and powerful and their policies is, somehow, never seen as an issue.

Going back again to the early years of America, the hysteria about 'propaganda' led to the passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts, which were used to suppress the Democratic-Republicans and their press outlets...which ended with the Federalists being crushed in the 1800 election. When I hear complaints about propaganda in democracies, what I hear is the complaints of the rich and powerful that the common people might be voting in their own interest, instead of those of the rich and powerful.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by joejerryronnie on Sunday January 27, 2019 @10:48AM (#19012101)
While this may be true, it doesn’t provide a scapegoat for why I can’t buy a house in SF.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by yesenadam on Sunday January 27, 2019 @04:49AM (#19011104)
Have you read Walter Lippmann's Public Opinion (1922) - well worth reading and rereading. The theme of it in a way is "that people do not know objective truth, and can be fooled by propaganda" It's about things he observed in WWI, the role of the media, the failure of the media, the start of the propaganda age.. My point is - none of these problems are new. Lippmann was writing about very similar problems 100 years ago. (In that and his other early books, e.g. Liberty and the News - on how somehow, we don't require journalists be qualified, although they have such a vital role in democracy.) It's hard to think that democracy is possible, given these problems.

(Saward in his Democracy says that Schumpeter in the mid-20th C simply redefined 'democracy' as 'whatever they now have in countries we call democratic', thus avoiding the worrying about democracy that produced the fascinating books of the early 20th C on problems with it. e.g. Lippmann's, Michels' Political Parties)

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by nabla9 on Sunday January 27, 2019 @07:11AM (#19011410)
I see Internet as somewhat neutral neutral in relation to democracy in already existing liberal democratic societies. It promotes diffusion of information, but not synthesis.

Internet really promotes anarchism. Even today with most of the discussion going trough few choke points.

Internet is an anarchist force and as such it's prone to informal elites. They are cliques that control people without well defined responsibility, and often without peoples knowledge or consent. The controlling groups can be rich individuals, corporations, foreign states marketers and political operators.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by js8 on Sunday January 27, 2019 @05:19AM (#19011174)
> He argues that technologies have inherent political traits.

What are the traits of money and billionaires?

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by gaius on Sunday January 27, 2019 @08:48AM (#19011651)
Solar power is considered democratic since anyone can harness it

But that makes literally no sense. You can’t fabricate solar panels in your backyard. You need a factory handling toxic chemistry and a supply chain of rare earth elements from open cast mining! Solar is no less centralised than nukes.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by chongli on Sunday January 27, 2019 @10:11AM (#19011964)
You don't need to use photovoltaic cells to harness solar power. It can be as simple as mounting a coil of tube on a flat board and painting the whole thing black, then pumping water through it. Backyard solar water heater made with cheap materials you can get at any hardware store.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by pixl97 on Sunday January 27, 2019 @07:38PM (#19014686)
Um, ya, I think you are missing the power disparity there.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by gaius on Monday January 28, 2019 @02:24AM (#19015796)
Yeah, it’s like saying you can make a waterwheel therefore hydroelectric is democratised. Go tell that to the Hoover Dam!
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by bronz on Sunday January 27, 2019 @02:52AM (#19010791)
technologies having inherent political traits is a consequence of a much deeper and more important aspect of technology -- that it has inherent traits of human economics. if you take a set of technological realities that might be imposed on some society, it leads to that society eventually reaching exactly one stable state.

a very simple example is the technology of guns. this technology leads inevitably to a state of the world that is characterized by the presence of gun-utilizing nations. this is because the world is a kind of market, and when guns exist the only entities that are competitive are those that use guns.

right now, market economies dominate the world. even china utilizes markets for its own internal economic affairs. when AI comes, this will turn on its head -- market economies will no longer be competitive and centralized ones will replace them. this will be a pretty shocking change.

also, rather soon, humans will stop being present. this is because they will no longer be competitive, their existence will be vestigial and therefore fragile and vulnerable to the slightest perturbation. it will be similar to endangered animals in the present -- no longer competitive, their existence no longer perpetuates itself and therefore is terminated for any old reason, such as condominium developments or pollution.

Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by phs318u on Sunday January 27, 2019 @03:38AM (#19010920)
> market economies will no longer be competitive and centralized ones will replace them

Assuming that the AI's have accurate and timely information. I suspect that one of the (many) reasons why modern economies can be dysfunctional is that the information feedback loop is often either inaccurate, incomplete or lagging badly. Solve that problem and you're gold.

[dead]
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by bronz on Sunday January 27, 2019 @05:45PM (#19014229)
your comment is rude. the emotional nature of your comment reflects the fact that you find something in my comment troubling but do not have any way of proving it wrong. what you do instead is attack the character of the person who said it. do you seriously think that you are able to see into the mind of a person based on a terse and straight-forward relation on the economics of AI? can you not recognize that this is impossible? if you have any actual, substantive counter-argument to what i have said, i will gladly receive it. otherwise, i must say that it is you who should keep comments to oneself.
Re:The AI Threat to Open Societies by chobeat on Sunday January 27, 2019 @10:37AM (#19012037)
He probably read Nick Land without understanding him. Or some cybernetics critics.