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Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by fvdessen on Friday January 25, 2019 @08:34PM (#19004158)
Isn't replacing people with machines what we've been doing uninterrupted since the beginning of the industrial revolution ? In what sense is replacing a translator with DeepL different from replacing a farmer with a tractor ? We've gone from more than two third of the population working on the fields to less than 5% and people still have jobs. What has changed that makes us think that this time it will be different ?
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by gotocake on Friday January 25, 2019 @08:45PM (#19004208)
Replacing people with machines isn’t, and has never been the problem. Telling generations of people who depend on the jobs they have to suck it up and move out of the way of progress without good recourse is. Shrugging and telling people to make do with two or three “gig” jobs is a bullshit answer to their concerns, as are empty suggestions to retrain or find a new job. People don’t work a coal face because it’s fun, but because it’s what they know how to do, and it brings home the bacon.

So if you want people to do more than spit on us as we pass, we should put effort into ensuring a safety net for them when the work we domtskes their livliehood away. Right now that doesn’t happen, the wealth just accumulates at the top while we suckle drops of it when it “trickles down” on us. It’s easy to talk about how machines will give us more free time, because we can afford it.

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by overtone on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:03PM (#19004278)
> People don’t work a coal face because it’s fun, but because it’s what they know how to do, and it brings home the bacon.

Far more than that, coal workers take pride in their work, it's part of their identity and it commands a certain degree of respect as being "hard labor". If it was just about "bringing home the bacon" they might as well take any other job.

This is in contrast to working for Wal-Mart or McDonalds, there's no pride in it, it's not part of people's identity. People want to move on from these jobs, but there are less and less opportunities to move on to.

> So if you want people to do more than spit on us as we pass, we should put effort into ensuring a safety net for them when the work we domtskes their livliehood away.

A safety net is well and good, but if people lose their jobs and get stuck in the net, it destroys them. Again, it's about pride and identity.

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by nopinsight on Friday January 25, 2019 @10:21PM (#19004562)
I agree that pride and identity are important to people’s well being. What are some suggestions to help people gain those back, perhaps in a still viable industry? Until AGI is invented, there will always be jobs available [1] but some jobs are unnecessarily looked down upon despite being important to society and safer than mining.

Since pride in one’s work tends to tie with the value that broader communities put on the work, would a broad-based ongoing PR campaign by well-resourced organizations (incl. local and federal governments) help with that? Perhaps we can put the DeBeers experience with creating a shared cross-generation myth of diamonds representing true love to good use.

Elderly care, for example, would be hard to automate cost effectively over the next couple of decades and possibly longer. If society puts more value and gives more prestige to the job, more people would be willing to train to do it.

(Obviously, the society should help people transition to their new roles as well for example by covering the costs of living and training for a substantial period.)

[1] Lump of labor fallacy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

As concrete examples:

- Has every piece of potentially useful land well-developed as a magnificent public or private space?

- Has all public infrastructure needed been built and well-maintained to the best quality possible?

- Does every person, adult and child, have access to world-class education/training they want or need, including private tutoring if they wish?

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by sedachv on Saturday January 26, 2019 @06:53PM (#19009371)
> - Does every person, adult and child, have access to world-class education/training they want or need, including private tutoring if they wish?

The well-resourced organizations seem to be backing broad-based ongoing PR and political campaigns to do exactly the opposite of providing people with a good education:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZGVR1-4Gqs

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by bksenior on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:08PM (#19004295)
Eh. This seems fluffy.

This seems more like the Industrial Revolution + Twitter. Just like all the studies that the world is technically better off in every modern metric of improvement (poverty, starvation, mobility..etc, but things feel shitty because you are forced to read about the one dude kidnapping and eating children one state over, I think it's probably just amplified fears (and ultimately seperation of teams) than it was during other large periods of change.

It's also worth noting that people dont die, jobs just shift unexpectedly. Sure it can crush a generation (see the american midwest from 1960-2020), but most people move to where the work is geographically and intellectually or just die out.

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by NeedMoreTea on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:29PM (#19004380)
There was far more to it than that. Whole communities arose around the pit, steel works or ship yard. Hundreds or thousands of local families depended on it. Family, friends and everyone in the street was a part of it. When it goes a few shop or driving jobs may be possible but leaves the majority up shit creek with no paddle.

> Sure it can crush a generation (see the american midwest from 1960-2020), but most people move to where the work is geographically and intellectually or just die out.

That is possibly the most heartless thing I have read on this site. I imagine your perspective would change markedly if it were you that were stuck, unable to afford to move, in a dead town whose industry left, while you contemplate your time until you die out.

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by pas on Saturday January 26, 2019 @07:04AM (#19005958)
You are right, so is OP, but I don't think OP's post is heartless. It's simply descriptivist (positivist) and not normative. It is what it is, there's no point in sugar coating it.

And yes, of course our response to these facts are even more important. Do we just short steel mill stocks and Pittsburgh bonds or advocate for retraining, for subsidizing emerging industry establishments in the affected areas, etc.

Some of the affected people feel it as elitism, socialism, etc. Usually because outsiders are blind to and ignorant of the local complexities, and also because good fashioned bias and denialism. It's easier to simply deny climate change and hate green liberals than accepting that coal is out. And that software has a much higher ROI due to the marginally aomost zero cost of adding new users/customers than hard labour jobs, etc.

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by NeedMoreTea on Saturday January 26, 2019 @01:12PM (#19007509)
There's a certain truth to it, but I think we owe society far better, rather than just blithely accepting it as it is what it is and tough shit for everyone affected. If we want a society at all, that is.

For instance, I remember the wave of de-industrialisation of the 80s. While I wasn't personally affected, I knew plenty who were. For many tens of thousands it wasn't a simple case of just move to where the work is.

How do you do that when your house is worth a quarter or tenth of of what you paid, but the mortgage debt remains? When almost everyone else locally is trying to move to get work too. Who is going to buy the house? In a town with no work. They may lose the dozen ship builders or steel works, but also lose the hundreds of businesses that serviced, supplied and depended on the products of those major works, then everything that depended on the money flowing from those - the takeaways, supermarkets, cinema, garages etc. The whole supply chain breaks. You may as well ask them to flap arms and fly out of the ghost town.

If one of the lucky few that were able to get out, carry a debt that can never be paid off, whilst earning half or less of the former skilled wage. They can't all move to the outskirts of London to work in banking or retrain in age discriminating IT in their mid 50s. Who's going to employ that junior? It ruins more than just one generation. The kids deprived of education and other life chances, or just the consequences of having parents from whom the hope has been sucked, perhaps on anti-depressants long term. Little wonder most of those places gained a huge drug and crime problem in the aftermath. Some places have still not come close to recovering.

Clearly we can't artificially keep every rural pit village viable, but we could, and should try not to lose whole towns, cities and regions, unless we want more civil unrest and more extremists elected. That history even goes some way to explaining Brexit. So yes, from what I've seen over those 40 years in the UK, we should and probably must subsidise through tax and incentives new industries and services establishing in deprived areas until they can sustain once again. Ignoring whole regions as acceptable losses in a "free" market was a huge, unforgivable mistake. Adequate regeneration help is probably far cheaper for the state once you consider all consequences anyway. Particularly in a future where it appears likely many more will lose their work, much more quickly, than in the past.

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by deevolution on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:58PM (#19004488)
I think this is exactly where VR will help people enormously. The game industry is already outpacing the sports industry in revenue - and in reach. Games provide people with agency, accomplishment, and a community that some people cannot get anywhere else - perhaps the very people you are describing. Its inevitable that people will be replaced by technology - no amount of government regulation is going to slow the massive tides of progress. VR is going to be a very, very important coping mechanism during this period of disruption.

edit: some words

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by hammock on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:09PM (#19004299)
Have you ever known a McDonald's worker, or a coal worker? I have known plenty of bottom-barrel blue collar workers who do it begrudgingly and some fast food employees who take pride in their work.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by jackcosgrove on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:11PM (#19004308)
I think this debate underestimates the psychological value of contributing through work and the identity and belonging that come from that. And I don't even think obsolescence becoming common will help to normalize this state. People want to contribute, and it hurts when they aren't needed.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by gotocake on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:18PM (#19004340)
I agree with this, but I also recognize that it’s not feasible for governments and industries to invent meaning in people's lives. Supporting people and providing them with more than a skin-of-their-teeth existence is and it’s something that isn’t historically addressed very well during transitional periods. If automation eventually dominates work, society will have to change, but that’s something we’ll have to work through as a society. The experience will be less horrific if people are not being dumped into poverty or awful makework jobs as well as having to reinvent the meaning of their collective existence!
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by bduerst on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:08PM (#19004292)
It's been a problem since the luddites in the 19th century, and as we move further into the 21st, human adaptability is going to become a stronger selling point.

Nobody really cared as the blacksmith, farm hand, or the secretary lost jobs. Coal mining is a celebrated profession for some reason.

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by pas on Saturday January 26, 2019 @07:11AM (#19005983)
Because density and homogenity. Entire cities are built on coal and related processing, mining, etc.

Whereas farm hands and secretaries have transformed, and were not so densely localized. (And farm hands are still needed, large industrialized farms are still rather labor intensive, just more area can be successfully managed by the same sized staff + a lot more capital/machinery.)

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by bduerst on Monday January 28, 2019 @05:59PM (#19021920)
Farm hands were close to 30% of the jobs in the U.S. before the combustion engine - now they're <1% of the jobs. Entire towns consisted of farm hand jobs, and people migrated solely for them, so the job itself was more important than anything we have today.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by throwaway218649 on Saturday January 26, 2019 @07:15PM (#19009473)
> Nobody really cared as the blacksmith, farm hand, or the secretary lost jobs.

I am not sure where you got that impression. The loss of blacksmith (and nailmaker, etc.) and farm hand jobs in 19th century England was a huge social issue (hundreds of thousands of people starved to death after being thrown out of work in England alone; over a million if you count the displacement that lead to the Irish famines), with regular government inquiries, newspaper coverage, and many, many books written about it.

In particular, there was a very famous book, called Capital, written by Karl Marx, that, among other things, points out that popular anti-automation anxiety goes back much farther than the Luddite movement:

> In the 17th century nearly all Europe experienced revolts of the work-people against the ribbon-loom, a machine for weaving ribbons and trimmings… Abbé Launcelloti, in a work that appeared in Venice in 1636, but which was written in 1579, says as follows: "Anthony Müller of Danzig saw about 50 years ago in that town, a very ingenious machine, which weaves 4 to 6 pieces at once. But the Mayor being apprehensive that this invention might throw a large number of workmen on the streets, caused the inventor to be secretly strangled or drowned." In Leyden, this machine was not used till 1629; there the riots of the ribbon-weavers at length compelled the Town Council to prohibit it… After making various decrees more or less prohibitive against this loom in 1632, 1639, etc., the States General of Holland at length permitted it to be used, under certain conditions, by the decree of the 15th December, 1661. It was also prohibited in Cologne in 1676, at the same time that its introduction into England was causing disturbances among the work-people. By an imperial Edict of 19th Feb., 1685, its use was forbidden throughout all Germany. In Hamburg it was burnt in public by order of the Senate. The Emperor Charles VI, on 9th Feb., 1719, renewed the edict of 1685, and not till 1765 was its use openly allowed in the Electorate of Saxony. This machine [the ribbon-loom], which shook Europe to its foundations, was in fact the precursor of the mule and power-loom, and of the industrial revolution of the 18th century… About 1630, a wind-sawmill, erected near London by a Dutchman, succumbed to the excesses of the populace. Even as late as the beginning of the 18th century, sawmills driven by water overcame the opposition of the people, supported as it was by Parliament, only with great difficulty. No sooner had Everet in 1758 erected the first wool-shearing machine that was driven by water-power, than it was set on fire by 100,000 people who had been thrown out of work. Fifty thousand workpeople, who had previously lived by carding wool, petitioned Parliament against Arkwright's scribbling mills and carding engines. The enormous destruction of machinery that occurred in the English manufacturing districts during the first 15 years of this century [19th], chiefly caused by the employment of the power-loom, and known as the Luddite movement, gave the anti-Jacobin governments of a Sidmouth, a Castlereagh, and the like, a pretext for the most reactionary and forcible measures. It took both time and experience before the workpeople learnt to distinguish between machinery and its employment by capital, and to direct their attacks, not against the material instruments of production, but against the mode in which they are used. [footnote: In old-fashioned manufactures the revolts of the workpeople against machinery, even to this day, occasionally assume a savage character, as in the case of the Sheffield file cutters in 1865].

From chapter 15 of volume I

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by deevolution on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:40PM (#19004428)
Progress has always come with some consequences, unfortunately. I'm not saying that we can't do better, but we're only human afterall.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by pseudolus on Friday January 25, 2019 @08:41PM (#19004193)
One of the issues is the fairly short timescale over which this is happening. The other is that no credible alternative has emerged as to what role displaced workers, and ultimately their descendants, will have in a society that will be unable to offer employment opportunities. This situation can be distinguished from the reduction in the farm population where farm workers were readily redeployed to the industrial/factory sectors.

There are a lot important questions that will need to be answered in a very short time. Where will the future unemployed be redeployed? Will the lack of employment lead to instability and civil strife? What about social mobility and advancement? Will the inequality gap worsen?

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by overtone on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:16PM (#19004332)
> Where will the future unemployed be redeployed?

Pay attention to which jobs currently pay well, those jobs are the most likely to get pressure from surplus labor.

There's also a big and growing demand for health care and care for the elderly.

I doubt that automation will truly replace such a massive amount of labor as some predict, but even if it does, that will cause an equally strong lowering of the cost of living, requiring less labor to live, cheapening welfare, etc.

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by jackcosgrove on Friday January 25, 2019 @08:45PM (#19004205)
Human civilization moved at a snail's pace for millennia until industrialization. Machines however have seen explosive growth in capability since the 18th century. The human body is like a Swiss Army knife that can perform many tasks well, but if I want to cut through a 2x4 I'll use a circular saw and if I want to butter my bread I'll use a butter knife. Machines permit greater specialization and differentiation than do our bodies. The trend lines of the capabilities of man and machine seem clear to me.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by sgt101 on Saturday January 26, 2019 @04:28AM (#19005610)
Have we replaced translators? Is there a single book translation that has been commercially published that was done by a machine? In diplomacy or negotiations does anyone dare to use a machine translator? I agree that for tourism and casual use machine translators are brilliant, but for the use cases where people needed to pay in the past do they not still pay a person?
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by yorwba on Saturday January 26, 2019 @05:52AM (#19005764)
They need to pay a person, but that person can start with a machine-translated text and only needs to edit the parts where the machine failed. So the same amount of text can be translated using fewer translators. Although the machine can't do everything a human translator does, it can still partially replace them, just as technology has partially replaced humans before (think a dozen guys with shovels vs. one with an excavator).
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by sgt101 on Saturday January 26, 2019 @07:18AM (#19005997)
Well - sorta in some use cases; my suspicion is that translators working in this way find most of what the machine can do marginal in value.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by ianhawes on Friday January 25, 2019 @08:37PM (#19004170)
Please do not tell people about DeepL.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by wallflower on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:18PM (#19004336)
One of my friends who does Spanish tutoring also does “clean up” of automated translations to make them sound native-speaker like. Según her, DeepL is not bad but not great. If you use an automated translation for important communications, native speakers will be able to tell and may even be offended that the company did not bother to use the services of a quality translator.

One example from the NYTimes.

English: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/28/style/modern-love-how-i-m...

Spanish: https://www.nytimes.com/es/2018/09/28/modern-love-donador-es...

Excerpt #1

Original English:

> A couple of years ago I began seeing ads for 23andMe, a service that analyzes your saliva — you spit in a test tube and mail it off for analysis — and provides you with information about ancestry, health and DNA relatives.

Translated Spanish via DeepL:

> Hace un par de años comencé a ver anuncios de 23andMe, un servicio que analiza tu saliva - escupes en un tubo de ensayo y lo envías por correo para analizarlo - y te proporciona información sobre ascendencia, salud y parientes ADN.

Translated Spanish (professional translator):

> Hace un par de años, comencé a ver anuncios de 23andMe, un servicio que analiza tu saliva —la pones en un tubo de ensayo y lo mandas por correo para que se analice— y te da la información de tus ancestros, salud y familiares según tu ADN.

DeepL’s translation has the same faults as other services. Namely, in Spanish, object pronouns are very important. In the sentence describing how he sent a saliva sample, the DeepL translation does not use pronouns correctly like a native speaker would. Also, it stumbles on what is the most common vernacular. The DeepL translation does not use the right way to say “DNA relatives” which is “familiares según tu ADN”. “Según” is commonly used to denote authority of a source or in other words “according to”.

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by hammock on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:10PM (#19004302)
Why? I'm fascinated by any meaningful, superior-quality tech innovation these days that doesn't come from FAANG or a pre-existing unicorn. There don't seem to be many.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by AmericanChopper on Friday January 25, 2019 @08:40PM (#19004182)
Because “world continually gets better over time” isn’t a headline that gets clicks. But one that makes people afraid of something does. That fear is also a great way of promoting a number of different political agendas, which is why you’ll see all sorts of people stirring it up.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by pseudolus on Friday January 25, 2019 @08:56PM (#19004246)
The "world continually gets better over time" is historically a relatively new concept. There are many periods in human history where things have significantly worsened. As they say in finance - past performance is not indicative of future results.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by AmericanChopper on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:08PM (#19004296)
>There are many periods in human history where things have significantly worsened

Sure, which is why I said over time. If you look at any isolated period you’re not going to see any trends that take place over longer periods of time. The standard of living world wide goes up over time, and has done so at a very accelerated rate since the industrial revolution. The world is generally becoming a better place, it’s much better than it was 100 years ago, and still even better than it was 10 years ago. New technology, and the progress of emerging economies makes life better for the whole world. There’s plenty of people who have an interest in selling fear, especially when it comes to technology, but that deception has been around for as long as technology itself. They said all the same things about mechanization back then as they say about automation now. The sad truth is that good news is critically dangerous to too many people with agendas, that it’ll end up getting ignored or denied with ignorant passion.

Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by pseudolus on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:33PM (#19004401)
Over the long term it's entirely possible that the current historically anomalous growth rate might be maintained but it's of little comfort to me and, say my children and grandchildren, that my great grandchildren will be living in the land of milk and honey if immediate generations are consigned to some kind of economic purgatory. The negative slopes and valleys that appear, but don't necessarily dominate economic charts, represent people. It's cold comfort to someone, or even a generation, at the bottom of a chart to know that "on average" things will work out.
Re:Automation Agenda of the Davos Elite by AmericanChopper on Friday January 25, 2019 @09:49PM (#19004461)
Even over the past ten years things have been improving. Even if you ignore the developing economies (where things get better faster) and the rest of the world, the US is still improving. Poverty in the US for example has been trending downwards for decades, including over the last 10 years. I can see how attached you are to this “everything is bad” narrative, but it’s not reflected in reality.