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Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by danans on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @02:41PM (#18971650)
The American term "middle-class" means something far less specific than the original British meaning of "well to do, town dwelling, non-aristocratic business owner". In that definition, a "middle-class" person is never an employee (which would make someone "working-class").

The American use of the term reflects (whether or not it is borne out in reality) the achievement of a comfortable and secure lifestyle (relative to the current time period) by an employee. In a way, it's a more flexible definition than the British one. The post WWII economic boom was the first time that, en-masse, people who were not inheritors of significant educational or monetary capital or status could achieve that lifestyle.

However, the problem with the American definition is that it chooses to ignore how much that achievement actually has to do with class and other inertial societal constructs, perhaps because frank discussion of class effects is still considered taboo in American society, whereas older societies with openly acknowledged class structures can actually have that discussion.

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by hoaw on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @03:52PM (#18972337)
The most concise modern class definition I have seen goes something like this:

Working class: work to survive. Middle class: work to do other things. Upper middle class: work for wealth. Upper class: work optional.

People rightfully like to talk about the working poor and the disappearing middle class, but I think we are actually already past that. What we are seeing now is that between education, housing and financial insecurity it is hard to be even upper middle class anymore without existing wealth.

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by malandrew on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @06:29PM (#18973902)
It's not even just that it's hard to be upper middle class (build wealth), but that people aren't even being taught to build wealth. Learning to build wealth isn't taught in schools. It's passed down from parents to children and it was far more common to find families where the parents taught these skills when there were lots more mom&pop businesses and homesteads where they built their own wealth and taught the skills to their progeny. The rise of the company man and the firm all but eliminated the need to teach about wealth building. People outsourced thinking about wealth building to pension plans. Now that pension plans have failed we have 2-3 generations now that have lost a lot of the teachings of how to build wealth.
Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by Latteland on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @11:48PM (#18975743)
So can you give more detail about this strategy to build wealth? Today the strategy might be get a good education, marry someone also well educated, get good jobs in lifetime possible careers (uh, doctors or programmers), buy a house of lasting and increasing value, buy stocks in low-cost mutual funds, don't waste money. This worked for me but this world was barely beginning in 1950, even though it was probably common in the 1960s. It's only available to a few fortunate fields today.
Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by war1025 on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @09:37PM (#18975181)
This is something I think a lot about. If you have a pension plan, you have zero incentive not to spend all your money. You have guaranteed income to maintain your standard of living. Having money for a rainy day becomes someone else's problem, just like you said.

I guess I don't have anything to add, just struck a nerve because that is exactly how I feel, so I wanted to say something.

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by malandrew on Wednesday January 23, 2019 @01:21PM (#18980936)
I would also add that if you had a pension and pensions are a cultural norm, you not only have an incentive to spend everything, you also have no incentive to teach your children to save and invest in anything except maybe education (so they can get a job with a good pension), since you expect pensions to still be a thing when they hit retirement age. Pensions were a form a corporate welfare that essentially wiped out the cultural norm/practice of investing in your own future and made people dependent on the firm. No one foresaw a time when pensions would end up being a massive corporate expense that would lead bigger companies with them to fall behind nimbler upstarts without them.
Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by nostrademons on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @04:30PM (#18972707)
"What we are seeing now is that between education, housing and financial insecurity it is hard to be even upper middle class anymore without existing wealth."

I'm not sure that's really true - or at least, it's an incomplete model.

Rather, what's happening with education, health care, & housing is that you have three sectors with flat productivity growth and large barriers to entry, which implies that the number of people they can serve remains constant. The population is growing. When you can provide a service to X people but there are Y > X people who need that service, Y - X people will necessarily end up going without. The financial insecurity is because of the mad scramble to avoid being part of the Y - X who get left out in this game of musical chairs.

The reason the middle class (using danan's definition of "employees with a comfortable and secure lifestyle") expanded so much after WW2 was because we had a number of technological breakthroughs that dramatically increased the productivity of these sectors. Antibiotics and vaccines meant that illnesses which previously would kill or require long medical care could be prevented by a simple shot. The green revolution increased the yields on crops by 10x. The interstate highway system and automobile opened up vast suburban areas for development, and developers (like our current president's father) became wealthy applying mass-production techniques to building housing. The number of skilled scientists in the U.S. increased dramatically during WW2 as they left turmoil in the rest of the world, which could support larger college populations.

We still see those technological breakthroughs in other areas like computers & media, but they don't happen anymore in fundamental areas of life like health care & education. Some of this is probably inherent in the problem domain (with all the easy diseases cured, we now die of heart disease, cancer, suicide, overdoses, etc, most of which have proven stubbornly resistant to cures) while some is because of artificial restrictions (like housing zoning laws).

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by grigjd3 on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @04:54PM (#18972953)
In higher ed, at least, we have an abundance of people with PhDs that could theoretically teach at a college level - which is why a single tenure-track job will have 300 applicants. Not saying that supply and demand aren't involved here, but a simple application of supply and demand like you suggest isn't an adequate description.
Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by nostrademons on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @05:16PM (#18973158)
Don't many of them actually teach (for bargain-basement wages)? At least, most of my friends who went to grad school had to teach undergrads at some point.

There's probably some artificial barriers to entry for education as well - it's hard to explain how Ph.Ds have no job prospects at the same time that college tuition keeps on rising. And I suspect that has to do with college's role as a signaling device for job prospects. If a bunch of Ph.Ds wanted to open a new college where they personally tutor a bunch of incoming college freshmen for much less than college costs, those kids would probably get a better education than any of their college-bound peers, but they also wouldn't have a degree from any credible university or much in the way of job prospects.

...come to think of it, I wonder if colleges know that their primary value is as a signaling mechanism, and intentionally restrict the size of the incoming class to preserve that signal. In other words, they're aware that they don't actually add any educational value, they just ensure that they only admit students who would've succeeded anyway and then point to all their successful graduates.

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by danans on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @05:57PM (#18973505)
> ...come to think of it, I wonder if colleges know that their primary value is as a signaling mechanism, and intentionally restrict the size of the incoming class to preserve that signal. In other words, they're aware that they don't actually add any educational value, they just ensure that they only admit students who would've succeeded anyway and then point to all their successful graduates.

I think what you're saying is that they don't add any additional educational value beyond what your hypothetical band of PhDs could. They do provide educational value and also the signalling, though perhaps they don't acknowledge the latter so much.

But at least with pre-university education, as far I've seen, the process you describe is what most private preschools, primary and secondary schools engage in: They can essentially select their student population for the children who are most prepared, either by means (== family support system) or by their natural abilities.

Even those private schools that have scholarship programs for underprivileged students only accept students who are exceptional and don't have serious social functioning issues.

These schools then point to the achievement of their students as an indication of their superior educational process (which in some cases might be true, due to just having more money to provide better educational services).

Public schools, by contrast, must accept students of all abilities, and thus look worse on paper, when they are often dealing with a much more diverse, and often more challenging set of student backgrounds.

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by vkou on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @06:49PM (#18974098)
Teaching is not the expensive part of University education.

Housing (which you have to procure from the University for at least two years), amenities, and administration, is.

You can provide a world-class education by having professors use a whiteboard to lecture to students in cargo containers, or prefabs, for a fraction of the price of a modern education. But then you don't get the 'college experience' of paying tens of thousands of dollars a year for living in a hotel, surrounded by underage boose, drugs, and parties.

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by grigjd3 on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @08:39PM (#18974901)
So room and board often gets separated out from tuition and while significant, is not the larger part of what a student pays at a "four year campus" college or university. One can also typically map room and board to cost of living in the area and find that you are merely getting a bad deal in most cases, not an astronomically bad deal.

A lot of the costs go into intangibles, like my college had some pricey guest lecturer programs. It is true though that university overhead has been growing quite fast lately and a lot of money in the last decade has shifted to things that are decidedly unrelated to education (I mean, LSU has their own lazy river).

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by grigjd3 on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @08:30PM (#18974851)
No signalling required here. A degree from a non-accredited institution might as well be toilet paper.
Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by randomdata on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @10:47PM (#18975514)
For a modern definition, I like:

Working class: One who makes money by collecting a wage.

Upper class: One who makes money through investments or similar business dealings.

Middle class: One who partially makes money by collecting a wage and partially through investing.

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by rtpg on Wednesday January 23, 2019 @12:19AM (#18975858)
I don't believe that "makes money partially through investing" is true for a significant part of the population given that 60+% of Americans don't have $500 in savings. Though perhaps that is the point
Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by randomdata on Wednesday January 23, 2019 @07:11AM (#18977552)
The internet suggests that the median American household has closer to $5,000 in a savings account. Regardless, while you may see some paltry returns, savings is not really what I think most would consider any meaningful investment income. The primary purpose of a savings account is to keep a modest sum of liquid cash available for emergency purposes and not where one would want to keep most of their assets.

Wealth figures are more difficult to come by, but the internet suggests the median household has a net worth of around $200,000. However, I would venture to guess that a large portion of that is tied up in a primary household which does not normally generate any income. It is not clear how much a typical person does make in investment income.

If you are right that 60% of the population do not have investment income, that seems reasonable enough. I think it is fair to say that most people are working class. I am sure that we can agree that, under modern usage, the middle class is meant to represent something that is not easily attainable, but more attainable than upper class.

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by designtofly on Wednesday January 23, 2019 @01:43PM (#18981222)
In addition to most "middle class" wealth being tied up in home equity, I would wager that the vast majority of "investments" is tied up in retirement funds. Very few middle class people have regular income from investments. Outside of Silicon Valley where RSUs and ESPPs are common, few people can rely on stocks or other equities to generate any usable income outside of retirement.
Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by bobthechef on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @09:52PM (#18975243)
The upper middle class is actually growing.
Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by tokyodude on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @10:20PM (#18975358)
it's it growing as a percentage of total population or only in absolute terms?
Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by village-idiot on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @04:30PM (#18972704)
You’ll also find that Americans regularly connotate social class with economic class, because talking about the former makes us uncomfortable.

I believe that the push to educate all young Americans was a push to expand the power of the middle social classes at the expense of the typically uneducated lower classes. Success in this endeavor is measured by the proliferation of middle class norms and tastes, not necessarily the expansion of middle class economic prosperity.

This is also why so many Americans talk about being “middle class”, even if they fall well outside the middle of the economic range, because they’re talking about the middle social class(es), not the middle economic class.

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by idontpost on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @07:31PM (#18974459)
> You’ll also find that Americans regularly connotate social class with economic class, because talking about the former makes us uncomfortable.

Also because money is the only god in this country.

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by village-idiot on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @09:02PM (#18974999)
That’s true, but our nominal classlessness was a big point of pride and distinction from old Europe and it’s explicit class system.
Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by cat199 on Tuesday January 22, 2019 @02:56PM (#18971798)
well put

it also helps us to conveniently ignore economic sovereignty when contemplating 'success' or 'prosperity'

which of course is a useful frame given the bulk of the post war american middle class was created by essentially trading economic sovereignty in the form of small farms for corporatism

not sure how it could have developed otherwise given the rise of factory farms, etc, but this direction was certainly influenced by large players as well..

Re:Big Cities No Longer Deliver for Low-Skill Workers by gwatstime on Wednesday January 23, 2019 @05:47PM (#18983999)
In my experience, in Britain middle class means driving an Audi and eating hummus (eg a lifestyle), nothing to do with owning a business