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Re:Technology’s dark forest by zwkrt on Sunday January 20, 2019 @10:56AM (#18953554)
Tech crunch is up its own behind on this one. The first potential reason is "resentment" people have toward the rich and glamorous San Jose lifestyle or because technology is "like magic" to the simple lay-folk. People are distrustful of things that have a track record of losing their trust, and tech is very high on this list.

The other day I was returning some umbrellas to a Target. I had bought them online and picked them up at a different store. When trying to return them the nice old woman at the customer service counter had issues receiving the inventory because Target's system was not accepting the return of inventory whith such circuitous provenance. We were both intelligent humans, I had a valid receipt, and in another era she could have just taken the umbrellas and the issue would have been resolved. But today we have software which contains all the rules, and often these rules extend out into the world and begin to govern our lives.

My example is silly, but think about how often tech restricts you versus how often is frees you. People reading this on HN might feel the answer is about even, but most people not in tech would probably have a very different answer.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by fnord123 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:19AM (#18953691)
>I had a valid receipt, and in another era she could have just taken the umbrellas and the issue would have been resolved.

I think you're looking back with rose tinted glasses. Making returns in previous eras was very difficult. It was very much caveat emptor or make an enormous fuss.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by jasode on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:37PM (#18954667)
>I think you're looking back with rose tinted glasses. Making returns in previous eras was very difficult.

I agree. I remember 20 years ago when returns were much more of a hassle.

For example, at Home Depot in the 1990s, to return something, you had to fill out a written form with a pen. The cumbersome pen & paper dance was repeated by the cashier as she had to analyze the receipt and manually circle which items were being returned. Today, their POS system just scans the UPC bar codes and immediately puts the refund amount back on the credit card. Literally 30 seconds instead of 5 minutes.

Also, if I lost my receipt, the cashier justs ask for the card number I used. They can then find the transaction in their database and issue a refund back to the card. Container Store can also do this so I assume many retailers can do it. This convenience is all made possible by modern POS systems. Previously, the stores had a strict "no return without a receipt" policy.

Overall, returns are easier today, not harder.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by newnewpdro on Monday January 21, 2019 @12:00AM (#18957761)
You're just not going back far enough. It used to be very easy to return things, at least out in the midwest where I grew up.

I had budding criminal friends in high school who were no doubt partially responsible for why it became so difficult, because they were exploiting the easy returns for personal gain.

They would buy 56K USRobotics modems from Best Buy and return the boxes containing used 14K modems. Someone had found a large quantity of disused USR 14K modems, I think it was from an office building dumpster. Weekends were spent doing this across dozens of stores at scale, I never heard about any of them getting caught.

Back then your average retail employee wouldn't know a modem from a sound card. All they verified was that a circuit board computer thing was in the box.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by LaundroMat on Monday January 21, 2019 @05:29AM (#18959317)
With things becoming obsolete faster than ever before, I'm sure this scam could still work. I know plenty of stores where they only glance in the box when you return something, and if you bought it cash, you'll get cash back (no traceability).
Re:Technology’s dark forest by tomrod on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:42PM (#18957691)
> Overall, returns are easier today, not harder.

On average, absolutely.

In the long tail, maintaining a system that bypasses software blocks is rare, and perhaps prohibitively costly. Yet the need for overrides exists.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by hoaw on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:24PM (#18955370)
We can probably agree on that situation, but I don't think that is the greater point so much as whether technology actually empowers you to make decisions. I might certainly also have rose tinted glasses, or was only exposed to certain things, but I remember quit clearly that 'back in the day' there was a strong narrative of having a choice, not technology making the choice for you.

I think to some extent that was why the early Internet felt free. Not because it was necessarily that free, but because people of different views could agree on technology as something empowering. Like from the famous hackers manifesto:

"I made a discovery today. I found a computer. Wait a second, this is cool. It does what I want it to. If it makes a mistake, it's because I screwed it up. Not because it doesn't like me..."

Today it feels like technology doesn't like me. The decisions were made by someone else "because that is just how technology work". While they are usually making a lot of money.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by temp231239 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:43PM (#18957695)
And thanks to such simplifies return process customers are being psychologically being tempted to buy without thinking twice sucking more time out of life of masses.
Re:Technology’s dark forest by ctoth on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:30PM (#18955402)
The thing is, this isn't tech restricting or freeing anyone. Tech doesn't come up with the business rules. Engineers don't decide hey, I want to make this old lady's life harder. Middle management decides that. And we write it. Because that's what we do. Paper forms have been keeping two intelligent people from being able to do what they wanted to do since far before the first electron flowed through a wire. Should we blame printers? The printing press?

Now if you want to blame technology for making it easier for pointy-headed assholes to micromanage every single human interaction? maybe. But computers don't decide to restrict people, and history has shown us that bureaucratic people have wanted this sort of petty power over others since long before we could reify bureaucracy into business logic.

If you believe that our mistake was in listening to the pointy-headed assholes, I'd love to know where I can work and not do so.

Paperwork's dark forest would be an equally applicable headline and yet...

Re:Technology’s dark forest by vkou on Sunday January 20, 2019 @06:09PM (#18956211)
> The thing is, this isn't tech restricting or freeing anyone. Tech doesn't come up with the business rules. Engineers don't decide hey, I want to make this old lady's life harder. Middle management decides that.

Middle management doesn't decide it any more, or less then the engineers do.

They order a system, the engineers build it, nobody, including the engineers, has a perfect understanding of the problems that the system is supposed to solve, so it doesn't 100% map to the real world. Nobody understands which parts of the system don't map well to the real world, so they don't design a process for dealing with the system's shortcomings.

The responsibility for this failure is collective.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by ctoth on Sunday January 20, 2019 @06:21PM (#18956265)
Possibly for situations where the failure comes specifically from an unconsidered edge case. But I'm referring to the all-too-common case which the OP points at where technology is used to deny someone something because of wishes of some nebulous third-party.

Do you really think the Product Owner at target didn't think someone might buy something at one store and need to bring it back to another store? Or did they just choose to make this more difficult?

I've got a few friends who are unfortunate enough to work in call centers for a large satellite company. They are constantly forced to treat customers like crap and if the customer complains to put blame on the system. Not the managers/executives who came up with the rules that the customer is having trouble with, but the computer system. It is used as a shield/excuse for shitty policies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lu1xyYx3Eo

Re:Technology’s dark forest by austhrow743 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:00PM (#18957537)
>They order a system, the engineers build it, nobody, including the engineers, has a perfect understanding of the problems that the system is supposed to solve, so it doesn't 100% map to the real world.

It seems like you're saying the system must be adhered to. Otherwise why would the system not matching reality matter? That the system must be adhered to is not a given, and is in fact the exact problem being created by middle managers.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by simion314 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @12:39PM (#18954273)
>My example is silly,

I have other example, here in Romania going to your doctor to get your monthly prescription requires the doctor to input something into a computer, if the system acts it can happen to waste 30+ minutes waiting.

The IT system is not optimized for the doctor or patient benefit and it should have some fallback mode to pen and paper( if there is such a fallback mode the doctor does not use it for some reason)

Re:Technology’s dark forest by bsbechtel on Sunday January 20, 2019 @12:37PM (#18954259)
That’s partially because the freedom gained from tech is oftentimes invisible or taken for granted. The same goes for political freedoms. Try moving backwards, and it becomes obvious how much has been gained.
Re:Technology’s dark forest by huntie on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:22PM (#18954985)
"Do you want to use a machine, or do you want the machine to use you?"

I've found that this question aptly describes the problem you had. This really isn't an isolated issue either, it's everywhere. Modern design is not user-oriented; it's developer-oriented.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by Barrin92 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:15PM (#18955323)
It goes deeper even. Machines don't work like humans, so as we increase the reliance on machines it's not that machines necessarily become more like us, it's that we adopt to the machines we use.

This was already happening 100 years ago when workers were 'deskilled' to operate manufacturing machines efficiently, i.e. turning the worker into a 'trained gorilla' under so called scientific management.

It happens today when you talk to Google in a way that the search engine understands, not the way humans understand things, and it happens every time we use a technical device to get a task done. And the conflict here is not between developer and user, because developers are affected by this as well. A software developer adopts the limits of the compiler and the language she uses, the compiler does not adopt to the person. So tech workers are really just a rung up on the same ladder.

People in the software world were not entirely oblivious to this. Systems like Smalltalk were designed with the idea of turning human machine interaction into something more organic. Sadly, this idea seems to have been abandoned.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by zwkrt on Sunday January 20, 2019 @08:48PM (#18956934)
Top comment poster here. You distilled the point I was unwittingly getting at: technology is rules-based and as we wrap ourselves in tech we wrap ourselves in rules.
Re:Technology’s dark forest by dTal on Sunday January 20, 2019 @09:52PM (#18957263)
"...the larger issue that we wrestle with all the time around AI [is] part of what makes us human are the kinks. They’re the mutations, the outliers, the flaws that create art or the new invention, right? We have to assume that if a system is perfect, then it’s static. And part of what makes us who we are, and part of what makes us alive, is that we’re dynamic and we’re surprised. One of the challenges that we’ll have to think about is, where and when is it appropriate for us to have things work exactly the way they’re supposed to, without surprises?"

--Barack Obama

Re:Technology’s dark forest by lsc on Sunday January 20, 2019 @05:06PM (#18955913)
I'm reminded of the quote about how writing everything down is going to ruin the minds of young people for memorization.

In general, I'd argue that this is not so much 'de-skilling' as 'learning how to use tools'

I mean, I'm sure that before shovels, people were way better at digging with their hands. Before bows, I'm sure we were way better at chasing down animals through strength and endurance.

Sometimes there are knock-on effects that aren't so good; cars may be making us less fit, (I personally think this is largely a problem preferences; most people prefer a density level that makes public transit not so practical, and are willing to pay a huge price for this in terms of lost time, traffic deaths, obesity, increased housing costs, etc...)

But the point is that these new tools usually make us better at the thing we're trying to do.

When I started working on cars in the late '90s, all I had were the manuals and exploded parts diagrams. It is difficult to overstate how much easier a repair becomes now that I can type a few words in and get a video of someone performing the exact repair I need on the exact same model of car. As a shadetree mechanic who isn't an expert with the exploded parts diagrams, this is a huge game changer.

I've even used the youtube to fix a laptop, something you'd expect me to be good at. (I'm no longer a professional hardware tech, but I was never a professional mechanic; go back far enough and I did fix laptops and other computer hardware for money) a friend had one of those fancy, thin Sony laptops; they tried to replace a keyboard and it wouldn't boot. they then took it to a repair place, who couldn't figure it out.

The exploded parts diagram was impossible. But I looked up on youtube, and found a detailed teardown and assembly. I followed along with the heavily accented voice, and the laptop booted up like new.

You could argue that in a bygone era, I would be more incented to figure out how to go from those line drawings to actual parts, to learn how to read those exploded parts diagrams. And you are right, of course; but I didn't, and because of modern tools, I'm better at fixing things than I would have been.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by Nasrudith on Sunday January 20, 2019 @10:12PM (#18957334)
Really I think it has basically always been like that if you care about performance. Sledgehammers aren't light even though that would make them easier to carry and swing - they need to be heavy to work and the wielders need to build their strength accordingly. Crafts, even hunting are adapting to the world even if you are reshaping it.
Re:Technology’s dark forest by darkpuma on Monday January 21, 2019 @12:25AM (#18957868)
It used to be that the hammer was as heavy as the user desires. Then, with the introduction of mass manufacturing, hammers become available only in discrete weights and the user was forced to make due with a hammer that is either slightly too heavy or slightly too light, because nobody manufactures the precise weight of hammer the user desires and the local industry to have a custom hammer created for yourself no longer exists.
Re:Technology’s dark forest by Nasrudith on Monday January 21, 2019 @07:52AM (#18960023)
My meaning was that the fundamentals for the task cannot be avoided. Nature doesn't shape itself for our convenience unbidden. You can change your approach and the ergonomics but there is no helping that digging a trench is going to involve moving a lot of heavy dirt.
Re:Technology’s dark forest by temp231239 on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:39PM (#18957678)
I second your thinking. When think more along your line of thought I always come to the conclusion of blaming human's so called advancement(in tech, finance, politics) being the sole cause all miseries of human today. Seems like we are on wrong path and needs to take inspiration from our ancestor way of life who lived a more satisfying and fulfilling lives.
Re:Technology’s dark forest by kamarg on Monday January 21, 2019 @12:42AM (#18957932)
I think you may be giving too much credit to how satisfying and fulfilling the general populace found life back in the day. Any specific part of previous generations that you're thinking of when you say their lives were more satisfying and fulfilling?
Re:Technology’s dark forest by amelius on Sunday January 20, 2019 @11:16AM (#18953673)
> think about how often tech restricts you versus how often is frees you.

Type systems restrict me every time :)

Re:Technology’s dark forest by protomyth on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:57PM (#18955538)
Despite what you write in the manual or advertise, your business process is your IT system workflow. If it cannot be done in the IT system then its not going to get done. Its amazing how few companies think up and game the unusual scenarios when designing or accepting a system. If you don't get input from in the field, then you really are missing something.

Heck, your example isn't even unusual for a chain: customer returning item - item originally purchased online - origin store different from return store. Simplified, the only thing that matters is "origin store different from return store". Get that right and it fixes a lot.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by DoctorOetker on Sunday January 20, 2019 @12:16PM (#18954110)
yes, recently I went to the hardware store to get a block and tackle system [0], which I had to use many times as a child (helping my stepfather who was an independent mason, in our "free" time). I remember seeing them in the hardware store more than 10 years ago, and they weren't very expensive in the past. I was surprised not to find any block and tackle system, well they had a pricey electromotor winch and they also had separate individual pulleys and carabiners, but combining those would quickly become a sloppy mess and approach a substantial fraction of the electric winch price... Block and tackle systems have been perfected over the ages with progressively better and better materials regarding strength and friction. Electric cranes/winches have their use cases of course for very heavy loads or faster work, but they also have a lot of disadvantages: they need a nearby power outlet or a generator (B+T you can take to the forrest if you want), there is virtually no feedback apart from your visual observation of the load, and they make a load of noise due to the gearbox. This reduces safety: due to the noise, not only can you hear less if others are speaking / warning you about a problem, but you also don't hear if the load is scraping against something (using an electric crane I once jumped away just in time as I saw a large bucket full of gravel stones tip over because the rim of the bucket got stuck on the other side of the bucket, out of view), but also with a block and tackle system, you feel if the bucket load is scraping or starting to tip through the rope line! I don't care how many bluetooth apps, or blinking leds you attach to an electric winch, it will never succeed in being as intuitive an actuating interface as the load line in your hands, and it is silent so you can hear problems with the load scraping against something, or warnings from other people.

Locally we have a couple of large hardware store franchises that have displaced the smaller independent hardware stores, and its the same everywhere. I don't believe there is some greedy scrooge who plotted the removal of the analog block and tackle systems in order to force a higher expense in either individual pulleys (for those who feel they need an actual B & T, DIY if necessary) or in the electromotorized winch (for very heavy loads or faster work). What I do believe is that at some point inventory software was marketed to them, with machine learning to optimize profit, and they blindly followed what the algorithm observed (perhaps some of the shops in the franchise were temporarily out of B & T when they still sold them, whereas others had it in inventory, upon which those who needed to raise a heavy load right then, decided to buy either multiple pulleys and 2 carabiners or the electric winch. so the algorithm that knew stock saw a move that increased profit if they would refuse to stock B&T systems in the future...)

So now most people in the West who in the past would have bought a B & T for occasional use, now can only buy a more dangerous, and more expensive and less intuitive device. I'm sure B & T's are still made, but I'm also sure a large number of factories that made them were subsequently closed because "demand fell" or rather "algorithm decided to let demand fall". I'm also pretty sure teachers in technical schools are still teaching kids to calculate the load for N turns through a B&T system in various kinds of scenarios even though those students will not be able to find one when they find themselves in need (they could probably still order them online, but if you see it as a basic tool at school you probably expect it to be for sale instantaneously in the brick and mortar hardware stores...)

So the problem is: conspiracies exist, but they are emergent, not explicit, the programmer who wrote the inventory optimizer did not intend to replace all B&T's with electric winches at the pain of clumsy multipart pulley system. Nor did employees in the store come up with this scheme. And yet the conspiracy is executed, because if we blindly optimize we effectively and systematically turn a blind eye to potential exploitation...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_and_tackle

Re:Technology’s dark forest by sbierwagen on Sunday January 20, 2019 @12:25PM (#18954169)
Re:Technology’s dark forest by DoctorOetker on Sunday January 20, 2019 @12:57PM (#18954391)
right, as I said, you can still buy them online, but no longer in the hardware store, so you need to know in advance, whereas many people or kids straight out of technical school may assume it will be available in the hardware store so that if they plan to buy and use a B&T system over the weekend or on some day off, that day is lost or messes up the schedule and appointments made etc... also many people do not have a technical background and go to the hardware store to ask advice and buy, and they will not know the advantages of a B&T system, which in my view is much safer for rare amateur use, ... in 50 years its going to be largely forgotten (by the public) except for a dedicated minority and the rest will not even know what they are missing... whereas in the past the employee at the hardware store would have simply recommended the block and tackle depending on the load...
Re:Technology’s dark forest by walterbell on Sunday January 20, 2019 @01:59PM (#18954821)
Would better online discovery help the public to be aware of competing classical solutions?
Re:Technology’s dark forest by DoctorOetker on Sunday January 20, 2019 @02:28PM (#18955036)
yes I was thinking along similar lines.

The problem is of course not the application of knowledge and optimization, but a lack of informed decisions.

I'm imagining something like taking a picture of a barcode or the object itself or alternatively a URL, and then seeing alternative product types. where other consumers can suggest and vote on top 5 alternative product types without advising brands for example.

I'm also quite sure that the lowest level employees walking around in those stores during the introduction of the price optimizations were suddenly bombarded for a period with different questions/requests from customers who were obviously dissappointed and that the employees were well aware that sale of some product types in demand was halted to increase revenue on others.

I'm a bit torn over how regulation could help, or stop "helping" like upholding libel laws (in case mapping commercial product URL's to alternatives could be portrayed as libel). It's also environmentally unfriendly to ship everything instead of picking things up in the hardware store (which can happen on bicycle etc). So part of me really thinks it is somehow the civic duty of the brick and mortar hardware stores to continue selling say block and tackle systems, say by regulating that "if you sell single pulleys, and electromotor winches (two extremes), then you should also sell at least one type of block and tackle system" but this is obviously hard to generalize in a systematic way. An alternative is to have consumer groups / construction sector list essential product types.

I would really like to hear more ideas on how to somehow (in)directly include the consumer's interests into the optimizer's loss function...

EDIT: another traditional entity could be viewed as having a natural interest to inform the consumer or construction worker: the insurance agencies could have a common interest to mandate that every sale or offer of an electric winch be accompanied with a reminder (or signed acknowledgement?) not just of the dangers of low-feedback up down button controlled electric winches but also of potentially safer alternatives especially when the user will only seldom use the device, and be less familiar with the dangers. But that would only work because the blind optimization by one party led to a potential increase in danger to their clients. Also it would only work if the insurance agencies don't just look up what tools were used during the accidents in their database, but for each one of them gather a detailed report and try and determine what other tool would have been safer to use, which is probably a bit more work than they are accustomed to.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by walterbell on Sunday January 20, 2019 @03:22PM (#18955356)
Buyers need their own, preferably open-source, optimizers.

For nascent examples, see VRM (Vendor Relationship Management), buycott.com, Apple's papers on differential privacy for on-device data, digi.me and reputation schemes in grey/dark markets.

In existing markets, viral media is one of the few brand feedback mechanisms with low latency influence on decision systems, computer or human. But media has its own incentive problems.

Re:Technology’s dark forest by agumonkey on Sunday January 20, 2019 @12:01PM (#18954014)
this era also:

- invested in fad - fad that killed the old way - only to ressuscitate the worst of the old (immature business, price games)

who wouldn't looove that