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Re:The elite that failed by paulpauper on Thursday January 17, 2019 @06:43PM (#18935754)
2016: brexit vote indicates failure of elite

2019: failure to ratify vote indicates failure of elite

pick one

Re:The elite that failed by toyg on Thursday January 17, 2019 @07:08PM (#18935884)
You equate a target (EU membership) as the criteria for failure, whereas the failure is in the approach to the problem itself, regardless of outcomes.

A decent elite would not have gambled away the future of the country just to get rid of a couple of party rivals (2016) or to keep a schizophrenic party together (2019). In both cases, machinations were set in motion in a completely careless way, with an outrageously cavalier attitude, and now the country as a whole is falling apart - regardless of whether we get back to pre-2016 state or we become Singapore-on-Thames, 20m people will forever feel angry and disenfranchised. No party intrigue is worth that price.

(It is incredibly funny and sad at the same time, that the guy who started it all was elected on a platform of fixing the "Broken Society" that Britain, in his words, had become. Good job, Dave - you really broke it for good now.)

Re:The elite that failed by throw564d on Thursday January 17, 2019 @08:10PM (#18936193)
I'm sick of people saying it is inevitable that Brexit will be a failure. Do you have a crystal ball?
Re:The elite that failed by toyg on Friday January 18, 2019 @05:51PM (#18943882)
Pretty tired also of deliberately provocatory trolls with no reading-comprehension skills. Please point out where I said brexit will be a failure, or GTFO.
Re:The elite that failed by StavrosK on Thursday January 17, 2019 @06:54PM (#18935821)
"They shouldn't have riled people up to vote for brexit, but once the people did, they should have carried it out". No need to pick one.
Re:The elite that failed by adrianratnapala on Thursday January 17, 2019 @06:59PM (#18935843)
The vote has been "ratified" because it only asked if Britain should leave the EU, and without a new referendum, it will.

If I had to model an elite failure it is this: people on both sides began to pretend a "hard" Brexit was an unthinkable catastrophe, this after an even sillier period when people talked as if Britain got to choose between soft and hard Brexits as a kind of policy choice.

In truth such things could only ever have been the outcome of a negotiation (or failure of negotiation) with the rest of the EU. The government should, from the get-go, have said "we will try to negotiate a deal, but we will also prepare for a hard exit".

This would have both prepared the country in the case of an outcome like this, and reduced the chances of it too by strengthening May's position when negotiating the terms of an exit -- thus making the final deal more acceptable to Parliament.

Re:The elite that failed by benmmurphy on Thursday January 17, 2019 @07:03PM (#18935857)
I think you are assuming a lot of things. If you think Britain leaving the EU is massively -EV then failing to negotiate trade agreements with other countries in order to create a better fallback position when negotiations fail with the EU is actually +EV.
Re:The elite that failed by InitialLastName on Thursday January 17, 2019 @06:52PM (#18935814)
How about "Forcing a brexit vote indicates a failure of the elite. Failure to ratify a brexit deal indicates a further failure of the elite"
Re:The elite that failed by tomp on Thursday January 17, 2019 @06:55PM (#18935823)
"Too much democracy indicates a failure of the elite."

"Too little democracy indicates a failure of the elite."

Pick one.

Re:The elite that failed by bduerst on Thursday January 17, 2019 @07:04PM (#18935861)
The article specifically talks about how other countries correctly handle these decisions democratically. It's not the quantity of democracy under question, but how democracy is being applied by political leadership is repeatedly a signal of failure.

This nuance you're overlooking is why false dichotomies like yours and GP's are considered fallacies.

Re:The elite that failed by topspin on Thursday January 17, 2019 @06:46PM (#18935770)
> pick one

That is a model example of a false dichotomy.

Re:The elite that failed by Gibbon1 on Thursday January 17, 2019 @07:06PM (#18935873)
Yeah that is just sophistry.

2016: Incompetent elite's create a problem.

2019: Incompetent elites make it worse.

Deeper problem is part of the neoliberal revolution was popular will was to be neutered, the political process was to be neutered. So that they couldn't interfere with the the free market or oppose the power of the rentier class.

So now you have voters, politicians, and the media that see politics and policy as a game that doesn't matter. Two generations of this and people wonder why there is no competence. Big wonder!

Re:The elite that failed by User23 on Thursday January 17, 2019 @07:16PM (#18935926)
The problems of the EU were well known among educated persons well before the Maastricht treaty was even signed.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v14/n19/wynne-godley/maastricht-and-al...

Re:The elite that failed by Gibbon1 on Thursday January 17, 2019 @07:35PM (#18936008)
And that's just another data point that shows incompetence.

The Maastricht treaty took away fiscal and central banking tools that governments could use and replaced them with... nothing.

That just proves my point here.

Re:The elite that failed by User23 on Thursday January 17, 2019 @08:22PM (#18936257)
Indeed. I am agreeing with you and supporting your perspective.
Re:The elite that failed by Gibbon1 on Friday January 18, 2019 @01:34AM (#18937454)
One of the things I realized watching this was this stuff probably holds together in the US because.

Federal Social Insurance programs, Social security, Unemployment, food stamps, and other transfer payments. These substitute for states inability to print their own money. and set exchange rates or control the flow of capital.

The Banking system is backstopped by the Federal Reserve not individual states. See Texas and California during the S&L crisis.

And the lack of tribal attitudes. Europeans think Greeks need to pay back all the money their government borrowed from French and German Banks. No one in the US really feels that way about Puerto Ricans.

Re:The elite that failed by User23 on Friday January 18, 2019 @02:03AM (#18937547)
You're exactly correct. Transfer payments keep our federal union whole.

As an aside, the states actually do have de facto currency issuing power as a function of their sovereignty and taxing authority. It's rarely exercised, but it has been done. For example when California failed to pass a budget a decade ago, it started paying with IOUs that it also accepted as payment for state tax liabilities[1]. They even strong-armed banks into accepting the IOUs as deposits. The total sum was nearly $3 billion. So the states can print money.

[1] https://www.sco.ca.gov/eo_news_registeredwarrants.html

Re:The elite that failed by Gibbon1 on Friday January 18, 2019 @02:44AM (#18937676)
Reminded me, the EU has the power to limit the size of member states budget deficits. But this only enforced against economically weaker states. The US federal government has no such power.

I think China in the last 15 years has taken the opposite tack, demanding regional governments run large deficits and loaning them the money. Which works because, Chinese leadership can give two shits about the books.

Re:The elite that failed by Supermancho on Thursday January 17, 2019 @06:50PM (#18935804)
It can be interpreted as a model example of a paradox just as easily. Depends on how you want to interpret the actors and motives.
Re:The elite that failed by woodandsteel on Thursday January 17, 2019 @06:58PM (#18935841)
You're assuming the elite can fail only once.
Re:The elite that failed by AnimalMuppet on Thursday January 17, 2019 @07:14PM (#18935917)
Holding the referendum was a failure of David Cameron. He tried to use the referendum to shut up a wing of his party. He should have picked a different tool, or else just ignored them.

The wording of the referendum, the non-specificity of it, was an additional failure.

Then Cameron failed in that the referendum passed. This was the opposite of shutting up that wing of his party. He should have campaigned for Remain, instead of just doing nothing. (Shooting down some of the Leave lies would have been useful, too.) The referendum passing is a failure of leadership.

Cameron, apparently tired of failing, bailed at this point, and Theresa May became Prime Minister.

May's first failure was regarding the referendum as binding, when it wasn't.

May got the best deal she could out of Europe. Parliament failed to ratify that deal. That is the success of Parliament, rather than a failure - they saw a bad idea, and they chose not to do it.

But May's failure is her determination to press on with a hard Brexit, even though that is also a bad idea. She seems totally unwilling to stand up and say, "No, this is a bad idea, and we're not going to do it" - and pay the political price for doing so. She acts as though Corbyn becoming PM would be a greater disaster than a hard Brexit.

In fairness, nobody else is willing to stand up and call a halt to this travesty, either. That's a failure of leadership.

So, yes, the 2016 vote was a maelstrom of fail. It wasn't just one event, it was a whole series of them. Events since then have also been a series of failures. The only exception was a moment of sanity by Parliament, in failing to ratify the negotiated deal.

There may be one more moment of sanity to come. If I understand correctly (and I may well not, I'm not in the UK), Parliament gets to vote on a hard Brexit, too. If they reject that, nothing remains but to revoke the invocation of Article 50. Doing so would be the opposite of a failure.

Re:The elite that failed by MaysonL on Thursday January 17, 2019 @06:46PM (#18935772)
2016