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Re:Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning by watwut on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @04:29AM (#18909894)
Believe that all sides are always equal is ideology on itself and harmful one at that, because it prevents you to take action when there is real danger around.

Democracy is ideology and nazism is ideology and communism is ideology and all three are subject to biases. They are not the same nor equal in their consequences.

Re:Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning by stcredzero on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:38PM (#18913031)
Believe that all sides are always equal is ideology on itself and harmful one at that

No one is promulgating that. Very specifically, the idea forwarded is that both sides are human and therefore subject to human biases and groupthink.

That's not ideology. That's just well established fact. Also, don't conflate that with my description of the current political climate in the western world, which is largely one of polarization and tribal entrenchment.

Re:Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning by watwut on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:59PM (#18915177)
Yes all sides are human. Some sides are superior morally, some lie much more and some lie less. Some groups have more groupthink and others less. Some people are more biased and others less.

The differences in degree matter a lot.

Re:Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning by stcredzero on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:57PM (#18916469)
The differences in degree matter a lot.

I'm glad you say that. You should go and look into the frequency of political violence, with an eye to finding things which are not reported by the media. A preponderance of incidents are committed by the extremist far left (Antifa &c) in 2018 and 2019. Then go and look into the frequency of people advocating for and tacitly approving of political violence. A preponderance of incidents are committed by the extremist far left and far right. Really, I'm tired of yahoos who basically say they can do anything, so long as it's no worse than the other side.

In terms of differences of degree, the extremes on both ends of the left/right spectrum seem to be trying for escape velocity from reason and sense.

Re:Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning by mcv on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @06:52AM (#18910504)
That's the thing. Nearly everything is an ideology, but that doesn't mean everything is equally valid or equally wrong. But we need to get out of the tribalism and dogma that often comes with any ideology, belief system, -ism or simple opinion, and consider the more tangible ideas, actions and policies instead.

Lately I've tried to avoid talking about -isms. Doesn't always work, because everybody talks about them, and I'm certainly deeply committed to a couple of -isms. But they tend to become both hollow labels and collections of dogma. "Socialism" is an obvious one that I often see abused. People oppose for example universal health care because they consider it socialist, and because socialist Russia/Venezuela was/is bad, universal health care must be bad. It's a stupid way to argue, but surprisingly common. The same is also true of "capitalism" of course. It can mean either the concentration of wealth in the hands of a small elite, or the free market. And even "free market" means different things to different people.

Better to let go of the dogmas and labels and talk about the results we want, while looking critically at what actually works and what doesn't.

Re:Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning by watwut on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @07:17AM (#18910624)
Communist russia was much more then just healthcare or public schools. And it did not got to the violence and oppression by having healthcare or public schools. Complete conflation of socialism, its variants (including democratic ones) and communism did not happened by random either.

Refusing to use names in this situation wont eliminate peoples fear, it will merely make it impossible to talk about what they are afraid of. Good sounding ideas can go real bad and it is good to learn from history. And I think that one of lessons of Russia history is that if people who are violent before gaining power or openly celebrate violence, they will be violent after.

Maybe it would be worth to talk also about Russia history and ideologies that affected it as they were.

Re:Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning by stcredzero on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:44PM (#18913111)
Good sounding ideas can go real bad and it is good to learn from history. And I think that one of lessons of Russia history is that if people who are violent before gaining power or openly celebrate violence, they will be violent after.

Too much of the current left in the US celebrates harassment and violence. There's the bike lock bashing professor. There's the various hippies and other Berkeley residents interviewed by Tim Pool who give tacit support to Antifa violence. There's the simply-conservative father and son who were chased down by Antifa goons shouting epithets and given a beat down. There's the local news reporter who was bashed, his smartphone damaged for simply filming Antifa. There's Tim Pool himself, who is a Korean-American and center-left politically, being called "Alt-Right" so a mob of goons would come and beat him up. (And that's just off the top of my head. There's so much of this, and it's simply not covered by the mainstream media.)

How is it the left can object to violence done on its behalf overseas, but either tacitly support it or even perpetrate and celebrate it as a means of political intimidation? Something has gone corrupt.

Re:Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning by watwut on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @03:57PM (#18915143)
Mostly because, left is more then just one group. Some groups are violent on themselves, some are response to violence from the right. It is not like the left would habe monopol on harassment or violence. If anything there is more violence on the right.

Most importantly, USA is not 19 century Russia in pretty much any way. You went completely offtopic and also conflated antifa with social programs - in discussion about tribalism and biases. Achievement.

Re:Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning by mcv on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:00PM (#18915877)
The same is true of the right of course. Not everybody there approves of violence, but some do. Some have a long history of violence and harassment, and the president seems to support it.

Part of that, particularly from Trump and his supporters, and probably from Antifa and similar groups, is excessive tribalism. They hate the other side and are eager to hurt them. Trump supporters are certainly quite open about that. Antifa might actually be different. It's also possible they actually believe that violence is necessary in order to stop fascism. But any support they may get from the left is probably pure tribalism again.

Of course there's also another aspect to violence from the right: things like lynchings in the 1950s, harassment of women, violence against Muslims and other minorities. Those stem from pure bigotry and a belief in (usually) white male superiority and a right to punish others if they seem too uppity or seem like a threat. I assume most people on the right abhor this, and yet some of these still happen.

Re:Ideology Impairs Sound Reasoning by stcredzero on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @05:58PM (#18916493)
a right to punish others

This "right to punish others" should be a big red flag, be it from extremists on the right or the left. Both extremes have poor records, historically speaking.