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Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by TomK32 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @08:37AM (#18891099)
My bet what will trigger the next recession proper was on Brexit, but 45 is beating the Brits to it. Not shabby for a temper tantrum.

This week I read up on Reagan's firing of 11000 flight controllers because the union that formerly supported him demanded better working conditions. It took a decade for air traffic control to regain the old levels.

Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by tossaccount123 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @09:15AM (#18891234)
Trump is asking for less than 1/1000 of our annual budget for border security. We spend 10x that on foreign aid annually. This entire thing is political BS over what amounts to a rounding error while congress almost unanimously approved $38 billion in money for Israel
Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by mikeash on Saturday January 12, 2019 @09:36AM (#18891313)
It’s not about the money at this point, but about not setting a precedent that the president can get anything he wants by threatening to veto any budget bill that doesn’t include it.
Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by atonse on Saturday January 12, 2019 @09:35AM (#18891307)
Maybe we can stop being obtuse? The senate can end this by passing a budget and override the president's veto. They're choosing not to.
Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by yourapostasy on Saturday January 12, 2019 @10:15AM (#18891470)
> They're choosing not to.

For sound political reasons. You may not like those reasons, but they aren't being "obtuse" in the sense they do not understand what they are doing because they lack the wits to comprehend. Minimizing your opponent with those kinds of terms risks you underestimating them.

The "base" that voted in most of the Senate voted in Trump. At the federal level, they pretty much count as a single voting bloc, and that's very powerful in the electoral landscape. And for that base, the wall is very nearly a single-issue vote factor (among a few other issues that base holds similarly dear). You may not like it for various practical reasons, but they currently vote slightly more consistently than Democrats in slightly more precincts where it counts. This might tilt soon to Democrats for demographic reasons, but for the purposes of analyzing this record-breaking shutdown, we must take this base's effect seriously.

Both the Republican senators and Trump need to at a minimum show that base that they were overridden by the Democrats on the wall issue, or they will definitively lose in 2020. Unfortunately, the Democrats do not hold a super-majority to force both houses to pass a bill, retrieve a veto from Trump, then override the veto. So the Democrats are stuck in a deadlock legislatively.

Where the Republicans are vulnerable is public sentiment. If the Democrats stir up public sentiment against Senate Republicans by somehow showing all Democrat politicians are throwing in their financial lot with affected Federal workers and simultaneously casting the GOP Senate Republicans as "Richie Rich" Marie Antoinette's, then that can weaken Senate Republican resolve to block Democrat-sponsored funding bills enough to punt the ball into the executive branch with some ass-covering statements to their base that they were somehow legislatively outmaneuvered by the dasterdly Democrats.

The problem with this kind of approach is realistically, even many Democrat senators are relatively wealthy [1], and quite a few Republican senators are not Scrooge McDuck diving into gold coin piles. It's political theatrics through caricatures, and Trump has a proven, astonishing ability to out-theatrics his opponents and make it stick (that's the part that continues to surprise me), and that's a wildcard.

But if the Democrats somehow neutralize the Federal workers' pain, and convincingly show they can outlast the Republicans (probably by showing they'll take it all the way to 2020 if necessary), then they defang the GOP's obstructive strategy. It would take a hell of a big war chest, however. Which is why I don't see it ever happening.

Would love to hear others' ideas on how Democrats can force Trump's hand on this shutdown issue, as this is certainly an interesting political problem that will be studied in the future by students of politics.

[1] https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/apr...

Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by atonse on Saturday January 12, 2019 @10:57AM (#18891697)
I don't think what you're saying is at odds with what I'm saying. In both our versions, this is a deliberate act by Congressional Republicans, and doesn't jive with the current narrative, that the President is somehow in charge of making this pass.

But again, this is something where the Republicans have lied to their base, stoked a fake immigration crisis using nativism, and is now forced to lie in a bed they made.

So this is what they get for stoking populist, nativist fear.

Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by lazulicurio on Saturday January 12, 2019 @12:27PM (#18892189)
> Would love to hear others' ideas on how Democrats can force Trump's hand on this shutdown issue, as this is certainly an interesting political problem that will be studied in the future by students of politics.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I think the Democrats have backed themselves into a no-win situation. If they give in on the wall, it's an outright Republican victory. If they don't give in on the wall and the shutdown continues, it's a victory for the "small government" part of the Republican base, who will point to the shutdown as proof that the federal government can be safely reduced in size.

And I agree with you that it's unlikely the Democrats will be able to appeal to the economic situation of the affected workers to override a veto. The Democratic leadership has been terrible at forging a consistent message other than "we don't like Trump". They've let themselves be branded as the "social issues party" and let the Republicans brand themselves as the "economy party"; which means they're at a severe disadvantage when it comes to economic issues.

Sure, there may be a racist component to the immigration debate, but most peoples' concerns are primarily economic: "they're" going to take "our" jobs[1]. I also can't think of anything the Democrats could give up as a bargaining chip. Concessions on the ACA would alienate their own base. They'd look disingenuous agreeing to additional tax cuts after making such a big deal of the previous cuts. I'm not sure with what else they could negotiate.

[1] Here the racism is more tribalism than outright "I'm superior because of my race"

Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by yourapostasy on Saturday January 12, 2019 @03:03PM (#18892975)
Good points, you also reminded me of another claim I've seen about how as soon as the Federal government "really starts to shut down", mayhem will ensue, like food safety issues will arise and cause the GOP to abruptly about-face. It is more nuanced than that, and the GOP can release highly-targeted funding bills that paint the DNC into a corner.

If air traffic controllers start to quit for example, and air travel starts to shut down, then as a stopgap if it isn't a wide enough impact, Trump can order the armed forces to help direct air traffic. If it is a big enough impact, then the GOP can allow for a targeted bill just for the air traffic controllers. The DNC then finds itself in an unenviable position. Block the targeted funding bill just for the ATC's, and the mayhem squarely lands on them. Allow it to pass, and they start losing political points in this dominance game. It's not good optics for the DNC either way.

For some issues like food safety, we're not going to run into PRC-level, pre-FDA era food supply chain adulteration overnight, many fiscal quarters and years is more likely. It took decades in the PRC before the adulteration got to the levels we see today, and they still don't experience political unrest from it. The longer this shutdown runs, the more ammunition the DNC is handing GOP "small government" advocates' rhetoric (as over-caricatured as that rhetoric will be, and as wrong in its over-simplification it is, it will play well to the GOP base). The GOP wet dream is the shutdown drags on indefinitely, and they get to "starve the beast" by reverse-budgeting: find out what part of civilizational collapse becomes unacceptable due to lack of operations, fund only those parts, and devil take the hindmost. That's like a nightmare scenario for the DNC.

It can get worse, too. ATC example above: Trump orders a vestigial FAA to tell everyone using airspace they now can only access airspace if their special usage-tax is fully paid up, and budget all critical FAA functions via pure utility revenue collections. Or designates a private company to administer the airspace management, who collects revenue, and is granted by executive power the ability to regulate access to airspace, and disband the FAA. The salivating within GOP think tanks is almost audible.

The DNC appears to my casual observation to be playing right into the GOP's hands. I'm far, far from some kind of politics wonk/hacker, though. So I'd sure like to be shown a way out of the DNC's dilemma by political hackers who follow this stuff much more than I do.

I think if the DNC can put together a two-plus year budget plan in exchange for caving on the wall, then they take this corner they've been painted into out of the GOP's hands. By no means should the DNC accept temporary budget bills for just a month or so: that just loads more bullets into the chamber to shoot the DNC with more shutdowns.

By refusing to compromise ($5.7B is about a quarter of the estimated $25B entire wall project), the DNC backed the GOP into a corner with their base, where the GOP politicians got nothing to lose by pushing back. By raising the stakes into "for all the marbles", the DNC told these GOP politicians they have nothing to lose by demanding the entire $25B instead. If the DNC is going to play that kind of hardball, I sure would love to be a fly on the wall to hear what their strategy is.

Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by Buttons840 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @03:20PM (#18893064)
I have a theory that many Republicans in congress don't really care about the wall, because the Senate unanimously passed a spending bill the day before the shutdown began, and that spending bill did not include wall funding. If that's the case, then those Republicans would be reluctant to compromise, because any compromise involve them making a concession in exchange for the wall, which they don't really care about. Or maybe it is that they didn't care about it, but now they do? After all, the political climate is different now than before the shutdown, and politicians do care about the political climate.
Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by rplst8 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @09:38AM (#18891323)
This is the part that people so easily forget. The power is truley in Congress' hands. That said, appropriations bills must originate in the House and the new speaker and flock of freshman Representatives haven't passed anything yet.
Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by kmontrose on Saturday January 12, 2019 @10:45AM (#18891624)
The House has already passed a couple bills funding the government, in whole or in part[1]. They haven't been taken up in the Senate.

One of the bills passed this week: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/21?s...

[1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/04/house-passes-bill-to-end-gov...

Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by pimlottc on Saturday January 12, 2019 @10:57AM (#18891693)
> That said, appropriations bills must originate in the House and the new speaker and flock of freshman Representatives haven't passed anything yet.

This is flatly untrue. The House passed an appropriations bill [0] on the first day they were in session (Jan 3), and it has been waiting for a vote in the Senate since then.

0: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/hr21

Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by danso on Saturday January 12, 2019 @10:04AM (#18891431)
Why would the House waste time passing bills that aren’t going to have a veto proof majority? Congress generally waits until they’re close to having the votes before going through the process.
Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by sdenton4 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @10:42AM (#18891607)
The Senate passed the House bill before the winter recess. Trump threw his tantrum, though...
Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by TomK32 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @09:22AM (#18891254)
As a European I find the US system to bind packages of laws slightly idiotic. The current fight is about a few sticks of steel yet unrelated federal agencies are cut off their funding. This is sabotage!
Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by rplst8 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @09:35AM (#18891310)
They don't have to do it this way. They call the packages Omnibus bills and its supposed to be some sort of way to make the process more efficient and strike deals. You get your pet project and I get mine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_bill

Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by dtech on Saturday January 12, 2019 @09:32AM (#18891298)
Wait until you hear about the debt limit [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIbkoop4AYE

Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by ohiovr on Saturday January 12, 2019 @10:42AM (#18891606)
We have more than a 5 trillion dollar budget?
Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by zorga on Saturday January 12, 2019 @11:59AM (#18892026)
> Trump is asking for less than 1/1000 of our annual budget for border security.

No, he's asking for it for a wall, not for border security; wall's are't security, they're security theater. Actual security requires people, not walls. Most illegals fly in on Visa's and just over stay, they don't sneak in through the desert. Walls are easily by ladders, ropes, and shovels, only an idiot like Trump would want to spend billions on a wall.

Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by sattoshi on Saturday January 12, 2019 @05:15PM (#18893578)
What is this meme that walls are ineffective? The only places that are/were effective without walls shot people on sight (Dominican Republic for example).
Re:Government shutdown: TLS certificates not renewed, many w... by zorga on Sunday January 13, 2019 @03:16PM (#18898435)
Was there something about ropes, ladders, and shovels that wasn't clear? Wall's can't stop someone determined to get over/under it; security doesn't come from a wall, it comes from boots on the ground. It's not a meme, it's a fact. Beyond that, putting up a wall presumes incorrectly that that's how illegals get into the country, it's not. One only has to get a tourist visa and then not leave to get into the country, no wall stops that; walls are for show and are a waste of money. Then entire border of the country is open, putting a wall on a small part of the southern border is simply idiotic.