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Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by aristophenes on Saturday January 12, 2019 @07:06AM (#18890860)
Two points in rebuttal. First, companies can expand more confidently if they know they can reduce more easily if they need to. It is more efficient for companies to be able to right-size themselves. Bolstering this point of view is that the USA has a 4% unemployment rate, which is about as low as you can get without things starting to break down. The US economy has been outperforming almost everyone too, creating more prosperity for more people, compared to countries with more restrictive controls over employment.

Second, specific to SpaceX, they actually succeeded in making reusable rockets. They used to need to build a new rocket for every launch. Then they needed to build their reusable fleet up. Now they don’t need to build hardly any rockets. I think this is what success looks like for them right now. From this point of view a 10% reduction is pretty low, and is only so low because they still have even bigger plans.

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by the8472 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @07:25AM (#18890895)
> Bolstering this point of view is that the USA has a 4% unemployment rate

As a counterpoint, Germany has much stronger employee protection laws and unions and has a comparable unemployment rate. That said, resizing is still possible there, it just has some lag.

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by Cardinal_ on Saturday January 12, 2019 @07:48AM (#18890967)
Kinda off topic but job protection in Germany is such a joke it's almost fake news. Got terminated recently after 12 months for no reason, filed for unfair dismissal, won the case. 3000 eur is what I got (lawyer fees 1500). You can be fired for very little cost, it's dangerous to think you're protected.
Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by JanSt on Saturday January 12, 2019 @09:48AM (#18891372)
The longer you are with your employer, the longer the protection. You should also receive Arbeitslosengeld I for at least 6 months (longer if you would‘ve been employed longer) and unlimited time of Arbeitslosengeld II (I think you would qualify), so you won‘t be homeless, freeze, lose your health insurance nor hunger, because it‘s all payed for by social security.
Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by Cardinal_ on Saturday January 12, 2019 @12:16PM (#18892129)
True but this is more social protection rather than job protection. As for severance pay in Germany, law is half a month salary per year...
Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by ascar on Saturday January 12, 2019 @11:49AM (#18891971)
My aunt got laid off after ~40 years of employment, which meant a welcomed bit early retirement for her and a multiple year salary severance pay.

My mom got laid off after a bit over 15 years of employment and got about 2 years salary as severance pay.

On top of that stuff like healthinsurance isn't a "benefit", but a social security and taken care of even in unemployment.

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by amayne on Saturday January 12, 2019 @03:39PM (#18893167)
Germany counts its non-labor workforce very differently than the US. It’s hard to make a comparison (people over 58 aren’t counted, etc.)

I don’t know if it’s better or worse, just different.

https://www.dw.com/en/debunking-the-myth-of-low-german-unemp...

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by pas on Saturday January 12, 2019 @07:37AM (#18890931)
The economic performance and prosperity creation might not be that directly linked. GDP is not a good measure for prosperity of individuals (households). Sure, better than nothing, but there are a lot better ones available. Such as the AHDI - adjusted household disposable income.
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Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by aristophenes on Saturday January 12, 2019 @07:53AM (#18890978)
My comments had nothing to do with a minimum wage discussion, and I doubt SpaceX employs people for even near to minimum wage. This is a company that creates rather high wage jobs. It is also doing very risky things. If the USA had stricter rules about employment protection and all that came with it, Spacex would not exist at all, and the 90% of well paid employees that remain wouldn’t have gotten these jobs.

The ability for companies to take big risks is what pushes the economy forward so that we can all have better lives for a reduced cost, and better jobs too. To “protect” jobs you would hold us all back, we’d still all be working on farms or in factories instead of on computers, increasingly from home. Is that what you want? Why are people rioting in France? Maybe because they feel poorer than their parents. Their laws protecting jobs have removed opportunity from everyone in order to provide stability for some.

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by akiselev on Saturday January 12, 2019 @10:57AM (#18891695)
France is rioting because those protections allow them to not because they are slowing down economic growth. France has a culture of rioting and civil disobedience in part because those protections give people enough breathing room to be involved in politics.

Have you ever been to Alabama? Mississippi? Florida outside of the metro areas? They're equivalent to third world countries with infrastructure held together by duct tape and spit. Every time I drive through those states, I feel like I'm in some edgy anarchist's student film about late stage capitalism. Those areas should have been rioting for decades now but US economics is set up in such a way as to deprive the constituency from any practical way of getting involved.

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by aristophenes on Saturday January 12, 2019 @02:27PM (#18892831)
Yea, I used to live in central, rural Florida for a few years. It's rural. Farms and ranches. They have a lot of land to cover, a hot and humid climate that eats anything left alone for too long, and not a high density of expendable cash because it's various types of farming which has almost always been low margin. So the roads are going to not be great. But people were as fat and happy there as anywhere else. Spanish moss makes everything look dilapidated, it grows on everything including power lines. Sure it's poor compared to many other places, but I've also been to third world countries, and they are certainly not that. Not even close. So yea, the poorest areas of the USA are still not too bad, I think that says something.
Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by kire_says on Saturday January 12, 2019 @12:20PM (#18892148)
> They're equivalent to third world countries with infrastructure held together by duct tape and spit

This is deeply hyperbolic.

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by zaroth on Saturday January 12, 2019 @08:24AM (#18891051)
Wage growth in the US has stalled out for many years, but just recently since the unemployment rate has gotten so low (and this is with the participation rate rising) we are seeing wage growth in excess of inflation.

Wages will not rise if the labor supply exceeds demand. You need more jobs and/or fewer people in the labor force before wages will rise.

The American approach is to provide business friendly regulations and tax policy which incentivize companies to invest and take risks. The “social contract” is not vested with the company, but rather a free flow of employees between companies based on who will hire whom, who will pay the most competitive salary and benefits, and which companies are the most attractive.

The state/Federal government then provides programs that basically provide umbrella protection for all workers like unemployment insurance, short term disability, marketplace health plans, etc.

It’s not efficient for individual companies to be providing welfare to employees they don’t want or need. It’s a drain in the entire economy because the employee is doing less valuable work than they could do elsewhere, and the company has less money to hire workers they actually need.

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by pas on Saturday January 12, 2019 @08:13AM (#18891032)
> That 4% number is complete crap, and you know it.

Could you explain it please?

Even U6 is below 8 percent.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1377/u6-unemployment-rate

the part time part is big of course ( https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2015/05/the-many-flavors-of-... ) but that's how it was for decades since BLS started tracking it.

With regards to ethical wages, SpaceX should pay well, so people don't depend on them (they can save enough to be able to sustain themselves for at least a few months while they look for a new job). If SpaceX doesn't need that many workers they should give them prior notice (2 months or more at least, I don't know how they handled this).

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by aristophenes on Saturday January 12, 2019 @08:22AM (#18891046)
Article says 8 weeks of pay minimum, so that’s two months. USA has 6 months of unemployment benefits at half pay, which the employer pays for. Not sure if the severance pay comes with an agreement to not use that...
Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by Spooky23 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @09:25AM (#18891269)
We’ve pushed millions out of the workforce, partially with prisons, partially with welfare reform.

There’s basically two Americas. In the other one, 40-60% of adults aren’t working.

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by TheCoelacanth on Saturday January 12, 2019 @11:17AM (#18891797)
The employment to population ratio is 79.7% for people 25-54. That has only been exceeded for less than 10 years in history. The only time it has ever been exceeded by more than a point was June 1997-May 2001 during the dot-com bubble.
Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by Spooky23 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @11:22AM (#18891835)
For some demographic groups, labor force participation is significantly lower. This is what I’m referring to.

Unemployment only factors in labor force participants.

Data: https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-particip...

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by TheCoelacanth on Saturday January 12, 2019 @12:01PM (#18892037)
Employment to population ratio does not exclude anyone. It is the number of people divided by the number of people who are employed. It is also not 2016 anymore. The prime-age labor force participation rate has risen about a point since then.

Labor force participation rate is also not a measure of employment. It is the number of people who are employed plus the number of people who are actively looking for employment but who aren't employed. If you want strictly what portion of the population is currently working, that is employment to population ratio, which is what I posted.

Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by Spooky23 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @06:05PM (#18893833)
That ratio varies significantly for African Americans, rural whites and African Americans and Hispanic women.
Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by amayne on Saturday January 12, 2019 @03:29PM (#18893120)
The Ford pay thing is poorly understood. The factory had ridiculously high turnover and it severely impacted productivity. Nearly half the $5 wage came from a bonus after a committee visited your home and decided you were living morally according to Henry Ford’s standards: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/04/the-stor...
Re:SpaceX to lay off 10% of Workforce by Symmetry on Saturday January 12, 2019 @09:36AM (#18891314)
That 4% number really isn't crap. By favorite restaurant close to work just cut lunchtime service because they couldn't hire enough staff and I see "Help wanted" signs all over just like I remember from back in 2000.