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Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by mc32 on Friday January 11, 2019 @11:19AM (#18884514)
It's interesting that their Santa looks a lot like the US/UK version of Santa designed by Nast, later popularized by the Coca-Cola Co.[1], and not a continental Santa.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_suit

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by js8 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @06:47AM (#18890806)
It is supposed to be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ded_Moroz, not Santa. (The article somewhat implies that Ded Moroz was a communist invention based on Santa Claus, but in fact this is not true.) And you can see even in the postcards and the article that he doesn't necessarily has a red dress, although I suspect (maybe some Russian can clarify) that the red dress is the influence of the West.
Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by aasasd on Saturday January 12, 2019 @07:21AM (#18890888)
Russian Wikipedia says Ded Moroz is a merger of earlier folk and literary characters in Pagan-like tradition, with Saint Nicholas who was imported in the mid- to late 19th century.

E.g. this card is Saint Nicholas from sometime before the 1917 revolution: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ded_Moroz_Snegurochk...

while this is an interpretation of the old Moroz character in traditional garb, by Victor Vasnetsov: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%B4_%...

White coat seems to be more in line with the tradition, but frankly I dunno if Ded got much of graphic development before Nick swooped in, as he seems to be more of a figure of fairy tales and some literature.

It's left to dig up why the card above depicts a Nicholas of Nast's design.

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by cat199 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @11:36AM (#18891908)
> Saint Nicholas who was imported in the mid- to late 19th century.

St. Nicholas is a hugely popular patron saint in the orthodox church, he was not imported from the west. The average person there probably knows more about actual Nicholas from history than many elsewhere.

One of the things Nicholas is famous for is punching a heretic and by this and associated actions resolving the huge theological controversy of Arianism and resulting in the nicene creed used directly or as a basis for most other creeds in other forms of christianity (see also great schism & filioque). Incidentally Arianism has a resurgence in some strands of protestantism, which of course, speaking of propaganda, is more prevalent in countries favoring the historically devoid Macy's Red Reindeer 'Santa Claus'..

Here is an article with many russian faithful including Putin venerating a rib bone of st nicholas:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40062807

But yes, this does have little to do with the red 'miracle on 34th street' shopping and reindeer st nicholas, and that is probably an import, true

more about actual nicholas from a russian-ish source:

https://russian-crafts.com/russian-saints-icons/st-nicholas....

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by aasasd on Saturday January 12, 2019 @02:55PM (#18892943)
From what I gathered, Orthodox Nicholas didn't have the habit of giving gifts to kids, which is what the folks sought to borrow from Europe.
Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by ordu on Saturday January 12, 2019 @07:14AM (#18890877)
> The article somewhat implies that Ded Moroz was a communist invention based on Santa Claus, but in fact this is not true.

It is true to some extent. I'm not sure, but it seems to me that before communist revolution Ded Moroz was not an essential part of christmas. It was mostly fiction and lore character representing winter and cold, and was not connected with christian holidays. It is communist's work to make a strong connection, and it seems as an imitation of Europe and US traditions.

> he doesn't necessarily has a red dress, although I suspect (maybe some Russian can clarify) that the red dress is the influence of the West.

He have no strong preference for a dress color. Though red and blue are the most frequent. Maybe just because soviet industry made only red and blue dresses for actors playing Ded Moroz. A lack of variety is a known Soviet industy trait.

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by petre on Saturday January 12, 2019 @06:59AM (#18890844)
I suspect it has something to do with the communist revolution rather than the influence of the West
Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by ordu on Saturday January 12, 2019 @07:03AM (#18890852)
It is not Santa Claus. It is "Ded Moroz"[1]. An old bloke from the times before christianity came to Russia. Orthodox priests always (for a ~1k years) opposed such characters, trying to extinguish any lore except christianity, but never fully succeeded.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ded_Moroz

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by acqq on Saturday January 12, 2019 @07:08AM (#18890869)
Thanks. Wikipedia has the drawing from 1885, i.e. more than two decades before the Soviets existed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%B4_%D0%9C...

Anybody knows even older?

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by aasasd on Saturday January 12, 2019 @07:42AM (#18890942)
It's curious how Russian (or Slavic?) people never abandoned remnants of pagan traditions despite calling themselves Christians. Fairy tales and merchandise galore, dozens if not hundreds of superstitions. Plenty of older people still believe in folk magic practiced by ‘gifted’ individuals (pretty much witches), though apparently with God's blessing.

The same happened with religion and socialism: bolsheviks didn't hold back on killing priests, but the religion went strong (though it's said that the opposition to religion was abandoned in the light of unifying rhetoric of '41–45).

Basically, people don't seem to care about ideological purity as long as the rhetoric is attractive.

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by pndy on Saturday January 12, 2019 @08:48AM (#18891131)
There are still people who are worshiping old "forgotten" faith; in some cases they're being used by political entities who are incorporating Slavic faith under Pan-Slavism ideology (the further on East in Europe, the more often that happens). In most of the cases the blending between Slavic and Christianity occurred and you can see that Dziady were evolved into All Souls' Day, or Noc Kupały - Kupala Night (Midsummer) turned into St. John's Day and so on.

But this is not exclusive to Slavic faith - absorption of cults happened in the history many times when those on a stronger position were conquering those who were weaker. Slavs had to abandon their faith in the face of growing Christianity and baptize, turn themselves into Christians in order to avoid being raided by neighbors and treated as infidels.

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by ordu on Saturday January 12, 2019 @11:18AM (#18891809)
My guess that it is due to authoritarian nature of any ideology in Russia. Vladimir the Great[1] made some research into modern (to him) religions, selected christianity, and ordered his people to believe into Christ (not Islam because "Drinking is the joy of all Rus'. We cannot exist without that pleasure"). It was all about politics and business, and christianity from the very start in Russia was a tool in a hand of a ruler. Bolsheviks killed priests and then ressurected religion: they were unable to trust to Ortodox Church, so they destroyed it, and then built new trusted Ortodox Church. Top-down approach, you cannot be fully serious with beliefs that you was told to believe.

The other guess is a family, which is important in Russia and to maintain tradition is like to honor ancestors. One of the traditions is to drink vodka at the graveyard with dead relatives. Come with your family to show to dead grandparents their grandchildren. Drink vodka and leave a glass of vodka and a piece of bread to the dead to show that your life is good and you can afford to buy food and entertainment.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_the_Great

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by c-smile on Saturday January 12, 2019 @03:29PM (#18893113)
This "to show that your life is good and you can afford to buy food and entertainment" is very far from the truth.
Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by cat199 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @12:27PM (#18892182)
Nice spin -

contrary and conveniently omitted parts from your own wikipedia article, which itself is condensed from the source documents (http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.k.harrington/christin.html):

"Vladimir the Great sent envoys to study the religions of the various neighboring nations ... Of the Muslim Bulgarians of the Volga the envoys reported there is no gladness among them, only sorrow and a great stench ... In the churches of the Germans his emissaries saw no beauty; but at Constantinople, where the full festival ritual of the Byzantine Church was set in motion to impress them, they found their ideal: "We no longer knew whether we were in heaven or on earth", they reported, describing a majestic Divine Liturgy in Hagia Sophia, "nor such beauty, and we know not how to tell of it." Vladimir was impressed by this account of his envoys."

but yes, lets highlight the drinking quote and the authority, and ignore the rest.

And concerning the Bolsheviks, you state:

"Bolsheviks killed priests and then ressurected religion: they were unable to trust to Ortodox Church"

This was not a "trust" matter.

Marxist ideology holds destruction of religion as a core tenet.

nevermind further that bolsheviks were also financed by hostile outside groups, both geographically and theologically..

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by ordu on Saturday January 12, 2019 @03:21PM (#18893069)
> but yes, lets highlight the drinking quote and the authority, and ignore the rest.

Quote about drinking is funny. Sorry about it, couldn't hold myself from quoting.

But I'm not sure what do you not like with authority. IIRC in Novgorod there was a riot, which was supressed. It was Vladimir's decision that Rus needs new religion, it is not like people came to Vladimir and ask him to find new god instead of their old and mossy ones.

> This was not a "trust" matter. > Marxist ideology holds destruction of religion as a core tenet.

Maybe. You know, I do not believe in ideologies. At least I do not believe that government is moved by ideology. Ideology is used as an excuse sometimes. But if something that ideology suggests is not wise to do now, then it wouldn't be done.

> nevermind further that bolsheviks were also financed by hostile outside groups, both geographically and theologically..

Yeah, I do not mind it, really. It is a complete BS: if those groups were hostile, why did they bother to finance bolsheviks? They probably were not friends, but at least partners they were.

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by gbear605 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @08:09AM (#18891022)
What do you think Santa Claus is? He’s certainly not in the bible.
Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by aasasd on Saturday January 12, 2019 @08:16AM (#18891037)
I'm pretty sure saints aren't from paganism.
Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by scottlocklin on Saturday January 12, 2019 @11:33AM (#18891895)
You should look a bit harder; some of them seem to be. At least elements of them. Dog faced St. Christopher. St. Brigid. Eostre taking place when it does. Heck, read 'the Heliand.' Early Church fathers were pretty explicit in their reasons for doing this.
Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by sorokod on Saturday January 12, 2019 @10:40AM (#18891591)
The Christian religion with its three gods (https://catholicbible101.com/theholytrinity.htm),the cult of virgin mary and multitude of saints - in what significant ways does it differ from paganism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism) ?
Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by hobgoblin1234 on Saturday January 12, 2019 @08:42AM (#18891116)
... syncretism.

Heroes with a thousand faces

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by tlogan on Saturday January 12, 2019 @01:42PM (#18892596)
Yes - there is a lot of pagan traditions still alive and well in Slavic nations. In my personal experience, Slavic nations has much more pagan traditions than Germanic or Romance nations.

I assume that pagan traditions were prompted by the state in the same reason how Hitler promoted pagan traditions to unify all Germans.

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by eveningcoffee on Saturday January 12, 2019 @06:23AM (#18890743)
It kind of makes sense. If they had to appeal to the western image then they had to chose between capitalist Santa Claus and catholic Saint Nicolas.

Considering that Christmas was not officially celebrated in the Soviet Union and private celebration was repressed to a various degree then they were left with a single option.

Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by aasasd on Saturday January 12, 2019 @06:52AM (#18890815)
Those cards are for the domestic market (pretty obvious from Russian writing), and that's ‘native’ Ded Moroz, not Santa. He just does look that way, possibly due to earlier cross-pollination.
Re:Vintage “Soviet Santa” Postcards Were Propaganda for the ... by eveningcoffee on Saturday January 12, 2019 @02:32PM (#18892855)
Obviously it is for the domestic market and it is Ded Moroz. The question was that why does it look more like a Santa Claus than Saint Nicolas. It looks here even more than the Santa than in the earlier version.