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Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by hetman on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @06:36PM (#18870152)
This reminds me of a tour I was once on, by one of the resident archaeologists in the open-air museum in Biskupin, Poland. It's the site of an iron age fortified settlement and there is both ongoing archaeological excavation and a reconstruction of sections of the settlement for visitors.

Anyway, the archaeologist showed me a shallow elongated oval wooden vessel with a slight depression in it, that had been on display. She explained that for a very long time it had been believed it was used for offerings as part of religious ceremonies. Only when she first began working there as a student this struck her as odd since she remembered her grandma had used an almost identical vessel for kneading dough for bread. Needless to say, its purpose has since been relabeled.

Her observation to me was that in archaeology, any time researchers are uncertain of the purpose of an object they tend to ascribe a religious meaning to it and so any time an object is described as having a religious significance one should always take that assessment with a grain of salt.

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by 2arrs2ells on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:47PM (#18870844)
David Macaulay's "Motel of the Mysteries" (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/108831.Motel_of_the_Myst...) satirizes this bias, with archeologists from 4022 inspecting a modern day motel room and uncovering the "holy" toilet. It's a gem.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by m741 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:55PM (#18870879)
I've got to thank you for this suggestion. I read this maybe 20 years ago in middle school, the concept stuck with me ("everything is oriented to this big box in the largest room, clearly it's a holy space" - television) and spent years thinking about it and never able to figure out what book it was.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by bluntfang on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:45AM (#18873735)
Well how isn't it a holy space? What is religion but an avenue to impart morals and support to a community? Does TV not reach this goal, especially given shows like CSI/Law and Order which basically give the impression that the police/authority have god-like powers to solve crime, which is our societies codified morals? Shows like "Good Morning America" in which the hosts are our pastors giving us our daily dose of what to buy and which celebrities to pay attention to?
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by dekhn on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @09:42PM (#18871085)
https://i.stack.imgur.com/LKl5c.jpg

one of my favorite books of all time.

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by lsc on Thursday January 10, 2019 @01:35AM (#18871980)
Thank you so much! I remember reading this book during my childhood, but the title and author have been lost to me for like two and a half decades.

I actively look for these books I remember little snatches of... I thought this one was a Stanislaw Lem book, and though I really, really enjoyed "Memoirs found in a bathtub" - but that wasn't this. The chant of "sanitized for your protection" during the ritual use of the toilet really sticks out in my childhood memory. I wonder if it will be as great, reading it as an adult?

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by Cthulhu_ on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:07AM (#18872526)
Thanks for that, I was just thinking about how people years from now would interpret stuff like our erm, sacred thrones used in the daily cleansing rituals.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by UncleSlacky on Thursday January 10, 2019 @06:27AM (#18873107)
Check out "Body Ritual Among the Nacerima": https://msu.edu/~jdowell/miner.html
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by d4rti on Thursday January 10, 2019 @10:35AM (#18874538)
And in the same vein, The Sacred Rac : http://www.drabruzzi.com/sacred_rac.html
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by JetSpiegel on Wednesday January 16, 2019 @10:11AM (#18921446)
Daily? More like every other day...
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by michaelbuckbee on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @09:40PM (#18871080)
Somewhat similarly there's a tendency to see items as "fixed" in time to when they were found. The archeologist was ranting about how there was this whole taxonomy of stone tools: handaxes, picks, scrapers, knives, etc. and that nowdays we think of those things as set items.

They then picked up a wedge shaped chunk of stone used it as a hand axe for a few minutes, took a chunk that had cracked off it to use as a knife, smashed it again to make a scraping tool and on and on.

I think it's just hard to understand how tools in the past were used.

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by TeMPOraL on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:28AM (#18872153)
I don't think it's hard to understand, it's just the plague of consumerism IMO. Most people have the attitude that an item has a purpose, and that this purpose is it's only sanctioned one, and you can't use the item for anything else. So instead of using an item for multiple purposes, they'll just keep buying the same thing with different labels ("food scissors", "paper scissors", "knife for X", "knife for Y", "knife for Z", ...).

I doubt kids in the past would hear from their parents such bullshit like "you can't dice these eggs with this, it's for dicing onions", etc.

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by masklinn on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:26AM (#18872603)
> I don't think it's hard to understand, it's just the plague of consumerism IMO.

It's not consumerism it's specialisation: with the advance of sedentarisation and techno-industrial might, we can afford to go beyond one tool doing a bit of everything not very well (e.g. shave and punch holes and cut food and …) and instead use plenty of tools which do one job very efficiently or conveniently.

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by TeMPOraL on Thursday January 10, 2019 @07:24AM (#18873342)
It's not just specialization, often it's overspecialization, driven by commercial interests. Even though a generic tool G can do tasks A, B and C well, people are told to buy specialized tools for each of those tasks that are only marginally better at their specific tasks (sometimes, not even that) at the expense of being worse for the other tasks. Hell, sometimes it's the same tool, but with a specialized label and extra markup (e.g. disposable shaving razors for men and women which differ only by a) color, and b) price). But people fall for that.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by Qwertystop on Thursday January 10, 2019 @04:08PM (#18878185)
Shaving razors aren't just different in that - the angle of the blade relative to the handle is different, because it's more comfortable/easier to control for different regions of the body.

The price difference isn't particularly justified, but presumably "face razor" and "leg razor" doesn't sell as well.

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by SmellyGeekBoy on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:16AM (#18872779)
Strange that tech seems to be moving in the opposite direction, with single-purpose devices like MP3 players, GPS devices and cameras being consolidated into phones.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by masklinn on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:26AM (#18872819)
I'm not sure it's strange: these are "nomadic" not sedentary devices, you don't keep your MP3 player and GPS device and camera in your shed, you have them on you at all times, so combining them makes for a much simpler nomadic experience.

Not to mention phones are really quite good at being mp3 players and GPS devices and cameras at least for the average person, so the tradeoff is not big.

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by Nasrudith on Thursday January 10, 2019 @08:35AM (#18873680)
Also the fact is that the user interfaces are the "huge" part for devices compared to the processing. It brings to mind the cyberpunk trope of full keyboard sized "decks" with a tiny screen if that as opposed to modern laptops which have long used squarer and abbreviated keyboard layouts.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by ryanmercer on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:39PM (#18877871)
Personal electronics perhaps. I'd argue there are more specialty hand and power tools than ever before though.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by masklinn on Friday January 11, 2019 @05:55AM (#18882513)
That's probable, but at the same time e.g. woodworkers would tend to build their own tools on the fly to fit their specific or personal needs, these tools were not standardised or widely available but I'm guessing the average wood carver in the 15th or 16th century had dozens of very specialised tools, it would just be tools they made themselves or asked a friend to make for them rather than tools they bought from a big box store.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by laumars on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:20AM (#18872349)
That might be true for some people from wealthier regions but I'd be surprised if that were the case for people from poorer backgrounds - even in wealthier countries. Plus it's not as if we don't have a whole plethora of multi-purpose tools from Swiss army knives, to drills that can also be used as electronic screw drivers, and even hammers that have nail pulls on them.

I suspect the reason most archaeological finds are attributed to a single purpose is a much simpler one: it can sometimes be hard to derive an accurate description for a lot of tools when you're only looking for a single use. Trying to find multiple uses is therefore going to be an order of magnitude harder. So you therefore go with the most easily identifiable use case.

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by ahje on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:53AM (#18872252)
I keep getting wierd looks when I do things with a regular utility knife instead of spending five minutes fetching "the right tool for the job".

I bet the ancient ones had the same problem when someone used a small shard of rock for a job that a larger shard was clearly better suited for! ;)

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by vmh1928 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @10:12AM (#18874354)
Who hasn't used a flat bladed screwdriver to pry open a can of paint, scrape crud off of a car part, lever apart two things after removing the bolt, as a chisel and then turned it around and used the handle as a hammer. In some areas of life, not much has changed.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by crooked-v on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @07:04PM (#18870324)
> any time researchers are uncertain of the purpose of an object they tend to ascribe a religious meaning to it

https://www.sfu.ca/~palys/Miner-1956-BodyRitualAmongTheNacir...

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by PhasmaFelis on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:08PM (#18870659)
Unless they're biologists. Then it's for mating displays.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by tzs on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @09:21PM (#18870996)
With non-human animals, though, aren't there much fewer possibilities than with humans? Most animals don't have the kind of food surpluses humans have, and so have can't afford to spend energy on things that aren't hunting or gathering food, fighting over territory, or reproducing.

So if an animal is doing something prominently that isn't hunting or fighting or mating or raising young and others are watching but not getting upset by it, mating display is probably a reasonably safe assumption.

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by PhasmaFelis on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:51PM (#18876075)
I was thinking of extinct animals. (Maybe I should have said "paleontologists".) Whenever there's a structure or physical feature in a fossil whose purpose we can't identify, the default assumption is "it was probably used for mating displays." Sometimes further study (or comparison to extant species) comes up with a more practical use later. It's all hypothetical, of course, but so is "religious purposes." :)
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by yellowbuilding on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:02PM (#18871425)
On this note, a vast amount of human energy (surplus and sometimes not, in the aggregate) can be understood as mating displays. Of course, we have added gender to the equation, which complicated things quite a bit.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by SmellyGeekBoy on Thursday January 10, 2019 @05:19AM (#18872792)
I'm not sure what the "gender" part of your comment refers to? In the animal world it's generally only animals of one gender (usually males) that engage in these displays.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by usrusr on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:30AM (#18872161)
The means easily becomes the goal for us. Is a dysfunctional mating display still a mating display?
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by cannedslime on Thursday January 10, 2019 @06:33AM (#18873125)
Your anecdote reminds me of the Roman Dodecahedron. I saw a video on here some years ago about it being a suprisingly good tool for knitting fingergloves. But the wikipedia page still says it is all but that.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by TeMPOraL on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:31AM (#18872165)
Another confirmation for your archaeologist's observation: my mother studied archaeology & cultural studies, and she learned the same thing from her professors.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by TomK32 on Thursday January 10, 2019 @02:56AM (#18872273)
The "religious" label has been a sort of running gag on Time Team. I really miss that show.
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by danans on Thursday January 10, 2019 @11:20AM (#18874958)
Even objects correctly identified as being used for religious rituals are often still derived from practical objects, whether cups, spoons, etc, or ritualized weapons. Few objects are purely religious in their derivation.

Sometimes the distinction between ritual and practical use is absolute, i.e "the sacred chalice shall only be used for services", or sometimes sacred vs. profane is distinguished by timing, or the incanting of particular verses.

In general, we have an overly dualistic view ("it is one or the other") of of the sacred and profane as pertains to ancient objects, perhaps influenced by the dualities pervasive in Western philosophical systems.

Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by ryanmercer on Thursday January 10, 2019 @03:36PM (#18877835)
I've always been curious how many items thought to have religious or societal significance are more in reality "yeah that's a backscratcher, yeah that's a dildo, yeah that's the equivalent of the 7th grade shop ceramics project that ancient Emo-Grok made, yeah that's just a random rock a bored prisoner carved as he slipped into madness".
Re:British Museum realises 'vase' is in fact an ancient mace... by CaptainJustin on Thursday January 10, 2019 @12:58AM (#18871847)
I have found the same. When a building's purpose is unknown it will usually get labelled a temple.