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Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by mrguyorama on Monday January 07, 2019 @03:28PM (#18849647)
I love using VR, even for long (3 or more hours straight, no breaks) periods, but dear lord would I hate using a VR headset to pretend I'm in an office.

Open offices are trash in the first place (at least for me), headsets do not have enough resolution to pretend to have a screen in front of me, and even if they did, it would likely produce more eyestrain than just looking at an actual HD screen in front of you.

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by sl1ck731 on Monday January 07, 2019 @03:32PM (#18849700)
Maybe wearing it all day as an office is a little overkill. But being able to collaborate even in front of some kind of 3D whiteboard room would be a killer for fully remote teams like mine. Drawing on paint-like sites or with clunky web apps has been one of my biggest pains that VR controllers, if done right, could be huge for me.

Maybe with enough presence remote would become even more commonplace. A man can dream.

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by radiorental on Monday January 07, 2019 @03:47PM (#18849885)
Two thoughts, based on evaluating remote collaboration tech.

1) Writing on virtual whiteboard in VR just doesn't feel right, there's no tactile feedback. It's doable but doesn't beat a real whiteboard (nothing beats a real whiteboard)

2) Observe people working at a whiteboard. It's predominantly an asynchronous one to many form of communication. Multiple people writing on the same board at the same time isn't how we communicate with each other.

The best in class tool I've found to date is Microsoft's Whiteboard app running on their 84" Surface Hub. Anyone who has the budget I highly recommend taking a look at it.

The app itself is free on windows 10.

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by jameslevy on Monday January 07, 2019 @04:13PM (#18850156)
It's definitely possible to have tactile feedback by drawing on a connected prop whiteboard that translates into the VR whiteboard.
Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by coldtea on Monday January 07, 2019 @06:04PM (#18851203)
>1) Writing on virtual whiteboard in VR just doesn't feel right, there's no tactile feedback. It's doable but doesn't beat a real whiteboard (nothing beats a real whiteboard)

Well, the main benefit of writing on a whiteboard is for you to draw your thoughts and for others to see what you wrote/drew. Not to get tactile feedback.

Besides it would be trivial to actually write on a whiteboard on your office while wearing a VR headset and have it be seen by others in VR space in different offices/countries (thus getting the "tactile feedback" as well).

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by jacobolus on Monday January 07, 2019 @04:20PM (#18850240)
> Multiple people writing on the same board at the same time isn't how we communicate with each other.

Chalkboards are actually a great way to communicate and collaborate in small groups, and have been for a long time one of the main forms of communication in professional mathematics and some other technical fields.

The chalkboard is a very democratic medium, because anyone can more-or-less produce the same output, it is easy to add notes over / adjacent to other people’s writing (including formulas, diagrams, ...), and the possibilities are very free and open-ended. This stands in contrast to fancy typography and bespoke technical diagrams, which are often slow to produce, difficult to modify, and require great expertise to do well.

Using a chalkboard well as a collaborative thinking tool takes practice though.

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by barbecue_sauce on Monday January 07, 2019 @05:59PM (#18851165)
He was saying that we don't communicate via everybody writing on the board simultaneously, not that its not a valid form of communication in groups. People take turns.
Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by jacobolus on Monday January 07, 2019 @10:33PM (#18852897)
What he/she said is that “it's predominantly an asynchronous one to many form of communication”.

And it is true that this is the way many people use whiteboards, as a kind of presentation tool rather than a thinking tool. But that is largely down to lack of practice with the chalkboard/whiteboard as a personal, one-on-one, or small group tool.

There are plenty of people who successfully use white boards as a tool for routine technical conversations in small groups, with multiple participants writing on the same board.

“Not everyone is writing literally simultaneously” would be a vacuous and uninteresting statement, so I’ll give the previous poster the benefit of the doubt that he/she was saying something more substantial. No kind of conversation involves every interlocutor literally simultaneously talking/writing in the same space at the same time: that would just be a cacophony of monologues, not a conversation at all.

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by jungler on Monday January 07, 2019 @11:15PM (#18853093)
This observation is crucial to how we approach collaborative technology, though: the assumed goal has always been to achieve lower latency and finer granularity of changes to create the experience of simultaneous editing with instant feedback.

What this means in practice is that we have a lot of software that makes it easy to bring a group of strangers in to pseudonoymously vandalize a whiteboard by drawing dicks on it - a true "cacophony of monologues." See also: most comment threads.

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by jacobolus on Monday January 07, 2019 @11:22PM (#18853124)
Having the technical capability to all speak/write at once is wonderful. It cuts friction in the conversation. (Think of the difference between a phone call and a sequence of voice memos.)

That doesn’t mean people collaborating won’t be taking turns as a practical matter, enforced by social convention.

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by sl1ck731 on Monday January 07, 2019 @06:17PM (#18851310)
I think one of the issues is you're never sure what someone is about to do. There is something about seeing someone take control of the drawing space where in VR your avatar would begin motioning towards the board or pickup the writing utensil.

Sometimes I'm hesitant to start scribbling on the drawing space because I don't have the social queues to not step on someone else's thoughts. Maybe this Whiteboard app solves that?

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by umeshunni on Monday January 07, 2019 @03:56PM (#18849974)
> 1) Writing on virtual whiteboard in VR just doesn't feel right, there's no tactile feedback.

To be fair, people said that in 2007 about virtual keyboards.

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by radiorental on Monday January 07, 2019 @04:01PM (#18850011)
Are you talking about the iPhone?? That's not a virtual keyboard. Your finger knows when it's touching the screen. Also, tapping on designate target and freeform drawing are two very different things

There's no possible such affordance in virtual space. You're literally writing in air.

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by rock_hard on Monday January 07, 2019 @04:11PM (#18850124)
I think what she/he meant is that “doesn’t feel” right is a moving target
Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by coldtea on Monday January 07, 2019 @06:07PM (#18851226)
>Are you talking about the iPhone?? That's not a virtual keyboard. Your finger knows when it's touching the screen

But it doesn't feel that it's hitting a button (because the button it's virtual), and people then had made this point repeatedly (e.g. in favor of Blackberry).

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by qu4z-2 on Monday January 07, 2019 @09:10PM (#18852468)
I would've made that argument then, and it's the reason I have a Blackberry today. It's just straight up not as good, in my opinion. But yes, people in general seem to be fine with it. I just wanted to push back against the idea that "Well, everyone said it would be bad and then it was fine.". The people who thought it was awful in many cases probably still do, they're just quieter about it 'cause it's a lost cause.
Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by rjvs on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @08:32AM (#18855364)
There are haptic capabilities to give some feedback... and the software can place the whiteboard where there is a physical wall for you to press against if you wanted it to, it doesn't have to be "writing in air".
Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by rhacker on Monday January 07, 2019 @04:22PM (#18850256)
Guessing he was referring to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_keyboard
Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by dustingetz on Monday January 07, 2019 @04:21PM (#18850249)
forget the whiteboard, imagine a regular 2D monitor with regular code on it except it wraps your field of view, so all the files of the entire codebase are open at once, let’s assume there is retina resolution everywhere, and it is collab edit like googledocs with a laser pointer attached to each cursor. Pair programming multi-cursor!
Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by chrshawkes on Monday January 07, 2019 @04:12PM (#18850136)
why do we need a 2 dimensional object to be in VR? That sounds like doing something without asking why...
Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by diminoten on Monday January 07, 2019 @04:34PM (#18850386)
I'm a remote employee and I would love the ability to "step into" a meeting.
Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by Balgair on Monday January 07, 2019 @05:24PM (#18850851)
Jane is clever, thought Greg, more clever than Jose, but not that clever.

BigCorp had introduced the VR goggles about eight months ago, and though it was initially a boon, most of the dev team had come to hate them. Sure, working at home was nice at first. You didn't have to wear pants anymore, you could cook fish in you apartment and not get death-stares, the commute over the Bay Bridge was gone along with the tolls. But it quickly became apparent that you still had to 'put ass to seat.' Initially you could skip out, take a long lunch, go to the dentist, take the dog out when you were bored stiff from the monotony.

But then that first update came out.

Thing was, in order to downplay the nausea effects from the screens, the goggles tracked your eyes' saccades, pupil dilation, and a bunch of other bioengineering stuff Greg barely knew about. It really did help with the nausea, not the Greg really suffered from it to begin with. His ex-girlfriend certainly did, making VR-sexting nearly impossible with her back in NYC.

It wasn't so much that the VR-goggles could track exactly what you were looking at, that data stream was just too much to parse, it was that they knew you were there at all. Once most of the dev team was no longer in the bullpen, and instead they were off actually living a life, productivity skyrocketed.

Well, initially.

Greg's boss, Jose, had loved it. But as the product reached it's natural limits, sigmoided to the economy, the squeeze began. At first, the number of tickets became the metric to game. Then it was peer-feedback, which naturally came to an armistice between all of them. One thing after another, as Jose was squeezed from all of this many bosses. Until eventually, you had to have 'continuous telepresence' during work hours.

Sure, when the new JK Rowling product came out, the entire virtual office became Hogwartz, complete with the ghosts and staircases. Fridays were a reliable beach scene. Mondays had that dark humor of a Dilbert strip in the skin and layout of the office. But Jose had each scene constructed so that he could monitor if you were there. Like a manager in a Cuban Cigar factory, his seat was higher. He could easily see if you were there in his goggles. A little red mark in Jose's HUD came up when you pulled out of the office. He had to, it was one of the few metrics he knew about and that he could manipulate to appease the matrix of his bosses. 'Put ass to seat'.

But Jane knew people. Greg didn't know who she knew, maybe one of the hardware guys at the VR goggle plant. But Jane was faking it. Greg has seen it, cataloged it, and studied it. The times she would message him, idly talking about some show, all of them were pulled from the NYT's RSS, easily a chatbot she'd actually paid for. The voice was just that side of choppy. And the way her head moved, that here eyes scanned across Greg's virtual face, totally scripted. He'd seen her replay the exact facial scan at least six times in one meeting. Greg knew: Jane was faking it.

Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by albemuth on Monday January 07, 2019 @05:33PM (#18850949)
Out of curiosity, what do you use VR for? Haven't found an application yet to make me finally buy a headset.
Re:Marc Andreessen: VR will be 1,000 times bigger than AR by mrguyorama on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @12:59PM (#18857703)
Hot dogs, horseshoes, and hand grenades (essentially a shooting range simulator with almost 300 accurately modeled firearms and plenty of game modes with more content added pretty much weekly)

Beat Saber is a VR rhythm game, and I adore rhythm games

Multiple driving/racing sims, including assetto corsa, project cars, and Euro Truck simulator (though I struggle to play that one in VR)

VTOL VR is an incredible near future Flight and military simulation seemingly focusing on weapons handling

I have over 30 VR applications, and at least 10 I would consider full fledged "games", but those are what I spend most of my time in