News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by burtonator on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:04PM (#18841612)
It's massively insane that people put microphones into their house and willingly stream all conversations to a private 3rd party in exchange for minor convenience.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by chillaxtian on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:58PM (#18841895)
Cell phones and tablets could already be doing this, it's not unique to the ladies in cans.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by chrisco255 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @08:22PM (#18842007)
Yeah but they're not. It would be obvious from the packet traffic if your phone was constantly streaming everything you said to Google or Apple's servers. It would also be a violation of privacy policy and potentially state law. I think there would be huge backlash if either Google or Apple did this.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by ColanR on Sunday January 06, 2019 @09:39PM (#18842316)
It doesn't need to constantly stream in order to record everything and send it back in periodic batches. Would it also be possible to determine that from the packet traffic? (not intending to be confrontational here)
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by wkearney99 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @11:44PM (#18842819)
The Alexa devices don't have the hardware within to do that. People have torn them down and looked. People have also constructed their own devices (rpi with a mic) to mimic the same functionality and it's consuming the same sort of bandwidth.

Now, of course, nothing will ever placate the conspiracy nitwits.

Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by ColanR on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:15AM (#18842950)
Thanks for the answer.

I don't see how there's a conspiracy here. Questioning the intentions and actions of an actor that could very likely be hostile to the user is reasonable and has precident.

Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by saagarjha on Sunday January 06, 2019 @08:12PM (#18841955)
“Ladies in cans” have a power source that allows them to continuously listen and send back audio.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by maccio92 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @08:17PM (#18841985)
And so does you phone.. how often do you have your phone on you and it's NOT on?
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by saagarjha on Sunday January 06, 2019 @08:21PM (#18842000)
No, it really doesn’t. Phones run on batteries and continuously listening to and streaming audio would cause them to quickly die.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by pvorb on Sunday January 06, 2019 @08:52PM (#18842128)
Maybe they actually do? For example, the 2017 version of the Nokia 3310, according to Nokia, can have calls of ~22h. And that's for a small 1300mAh battery. So it's technically possible to stream audio for a very long time. Maybe smartphones are doing the same in a very low-powered stand by mode?
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by marcinzm on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:13PM (#18841657)
>all conversations

I believe Alexa only streams what you say after the trigger word and not all conversations. Assuming you believe Amazon.

Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by ekianjo on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:17PM (#18841683)
if its technically possible to do it without you knowing then all that is left is how much you trust Amazon with that. Note that Amazon may have to surrender its devices access to three letters agencies for random reasons as well. You have to live with that assumption.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by JaRail on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:47PM (#18841846)
It's widely understood how the wake-word system works. You can monitor how much data is being uploaded and when. So no, it's not possible to just stream everything you say undetected.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by pvorb on Sunday January 06, 2019 @08:56PM (#18842149)
I believe 99 percent of Alexa users wouldn't notice the increased data usage. If "three letter agencies" carefully choose who they spy on, it might go undetected for a very long time.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by discodave on Sunday January 06, 2019 @10:17PM (#18842496)
If a three letter agency is interested in you then you would be lucky if your Alexa is the best bugging device they have.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by marcinzm on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:27PM (#18841734)
Sure. But most people trust corporations with almost all their private correspondences, photos, internet browsing history, shopping behavior, etc. So at that point how much is there to lose by adding everything you say into the mix as well?
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by stuart_marshall on Sunday January 06, 2019 @08:25PM (#18842021)
Some companies, notably Google and Amazon, have maintenance of customer trust as a core principle. This seems to be working. Generally, people trust a lot of their private data to these companies and the companies do not abuse it.

Microsoft believes in this too, but had to learn the hard way back around 2000 that customer trust matters a lot.

Facebook seems to have had a harder time learning this lesson. Perhaps they've learned it now, but it'll take a while before consumers really believe it.

Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by fnord77 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:55PM (#18841879)
I notice Amazon's wording about this is pretty careful. The device could still be processing conversations locally to some extent and still be adhering to the wording.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by pmart123 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @10:43PM (#18842597)
It records every conversation locally in a two second loop I believe, and then streams it after a trigger word.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by wkearney99 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @11:48PM (#18842838)
Correction, it keeps a rolling loop going so that when the CPU hears the wake word it has enough audio buffered for voice recognition to have a clean starting point.

If it only started recording when the wake word was processed as being heard there would be an added delay before you could start speaking a command. Might as well push a button and wait for a beep for that added delay.

Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by grkvlt on Monday January 07, 2019 @10:01AM (#18845631)
And the wake word detection is done offline, as can be easily proven by disconnecting your internet and saying 'Alexa report this conversation to the NSA' - she will wake up, but then blink red due to lack of network connectivity.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by brokenmachine on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @10:01PM (#18861924)
Minor correction but it could still do the wake word detection locally, then fail with the red light because the "report this conversation to the NSA" part could not be sent.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by lurquer on Sunday January 06, 2019 @10:53PM (#18842634)
Exactly. Everything after the first trigger word you said when you unwrapped and plugged it in is streamed.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by burtonator on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:06PM (#18841625)
What's the liability here when I go into someone's house... ? Do I give implied consent? What about states with two party consent?
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by alx_mcc on Sunday January 06, 2019 @08:27PM (#18842029)
http://www.americancriminallawreview.com/files/5114/9515/418...

The third party doctrine may be extended to guests visiting a home, but existing law should adapt to require the visitor’s consent. One party consent laws will no longer be feasible in this context without an exception, as they would completely eradicate any expectation of privacy when visiting another’s home.

A more pragmatic approach would be to extend the two party consent laws to owners of recording devices, whereby the duty to disclose that conversations are being recorded would most efficiently be placed on the owner of the recording device.

Consent laws must be modified in order to match the reasonable expectation of privacy of guests visiting another’s home. Owners of an Echo device, similar to banking institutions, should have a duty to disclose to their home guests that conversations may be recorded. The duty of disclosure would best be reflected by a uniform application of the two party consent laws.

Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by samstave on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:12PM (#18841655)
"Please take off your shoes"

"Please turn off your Alexa"

Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by Pfhreak on Sunday January 06, 2019 @10:51PM (#18842628)
"Alexa, please set an alarm for 12 hours from now to remind me that you are always listening"
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by spunker540 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @10:15PM (#18842489)
That’s a good question— maybe people just need to have a disclaimer on their front door that conversations may be monitored!
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by shimylining on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:17PM (#18841679)
Won't this be the same with any IoT service? You walk past peoples houses who have Ring, it's recording you.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by throwawaylalala on Sunday January 06, 2019 @08:38PM (#18842075)
Youre walking by in public; no expectation of privacy.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by megy on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:27PM (#18841735)
Yes, but now I don't have to get up to switch my light off.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by pvorb on Sunday January 06, 2019 @09:00PM (#18842169)
I don't get this. Yes, people are lazy, but now everybody has to go to the gym, because otherwise they won't even have a little exercise.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by wkearney99 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @11:53PM (#18842864)
Look, I know how to make my own candles from tallow (including how to bring down the beast to get the fat). Does that mean using electric lights is lazy?

Of course not.

I have my hands full cooking. Is asking "Alexa, set a potato timer for 12 minutes" any lazier than stopping my stirring the sauce, wiping my hands, picking up the timer and punching buttons on it to set a timer? I can keep going about my tasks and have the Alexa device help. Likewise, "Alexa, turn on dinner table" or "Alexa, announce 'Everybody get down here, dinner is ready'" These are little conveniences that keep a busy process going smoothly.

Could I live without them, sure. But I could live without electric lights and plumbing too. But why would I when they exist and are available at a reasonable expense?

Luddites, the lot of you.

Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by xnomad on Monday January 07, 2019 @01:22AM (#18843203)
It's not about being lazy, it's a huge help if you are multi-tasking and are time poor ,like most parents are. A pretty normal scenario for me is trying to get the kids out the door, whilst doing their shoelaces you tell Alexa to turn off the tv, turn off lights, tell you the weather forecast and when the next bus is due to arrive out the front.
Re:Amazon Says It Has Over 10k Employees Working on Alexa, Echo by beatgammit on Sunday January 06, 2019 @11:45PM (#18842824)
My parents bought us one for Christmas and I politely refused. There's no way I'm letting those into my house without a huge benefit...