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Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by geofft on Saturday January 05, 2019 @11:43AM (#18832539)
This article completely fails to mention that IPv6 is not just an extension of the address space but a whole different worldview about how to run a network:

- IPv6-to-IPv6 NAT has only been accepted very recently and very begrudgingly. Whatever your views are on NAT, the fact is that lots of people have network designs that rely on it, and if you want them to stop, you're now asking them to couple two major transitions, which is a significant economic cost. (Option 3 in this article is IPv6-to-IPv4 NAT, assuming that the public internet will indefinitely be IPv4; it's noteworthy that none of their options ever envision the public internet becoming IPv6.)

- IPv6 recommends the use of its own scheme, SLAAC, for address assignment, with DHCPv6 being also very recent and poorly implemented - for instance, Android has no DHCPv6 support and plans to never implement it https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=32621 . There's also a "stateless DHCPv6" for communicating DNS servers but using SLAAC for addressing; without it, SLAAC expects you to use a scheme called RDNSS to communicate your DNS servers, which is also not 100% supported. So you now need to spend engineering time supporting all of these options because some devices only support one and some only support the other, and you need to come up with network designs that work with both SLAAC (which has strong opinions on how you use /64s) and DHCPv6 (which doesn't).

- IPv6 doesn't use ARP, on the grounds that it's a layering violation, a separate layer-3 protocol that runs directly on top of Ethernet but talks about IP addresses. Instead, IPv6 has a clever scheme for using multicast to transfer the information that ARP would convey, by having machines join multicast groups based on their MAC address. This works very, very poorly with networks that aren't designed to support significant multicast load - for instance an attempted deployment of IPv6 caused packet storms in the MIT Computer Science and AI Lab's network for about a week because their switches were falling back from multicast to broadcast: https://blog.bimajority.org/2014/09/05/the-network-nightmare... So a working IPv6 deployment involves upgrading all of your hardware to hardware that has good support for multicast, which is also a significant economic cost.

- Various protocols like Teredo and ISATAP attempt to set up tunneled IPv6 routing in preference to IPv4 routing, making it hard to do a staged deployment, especially if you have BYOD on your network. For bonus points, because they're tunneled, you get different and possibly worse routes over IPv6, making debugging harder. So that's a cost in additional L1 and L2 support.

If someone had come up with an IPv7 that's just "We extended IPv4 to 128-bit addresses and we left ARP and DHCP and NAT and everything alone," people would have switched to it already. But the powers that be are drowning in the second-system effect and nobody wants all the features they added.

Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by grandinj on Saturday January 05, 2019 @12:37PM (#18832945)
This.

I was (as a young engineer) monitoring the mailing lists during the IPV6 proposal discussions and the hubris was palpable.

It was very much a case of "they will have to implement this so we will get to force all of these other improvements on them too "

Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by walshemj on Sunday January 06, 2019 @04:01PM (#18840683)
makes x.400 and x.500 seem sensible
Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by d00bianista on Saturday January 05, 2019 @05:41PM (#18834749)
> an attempted deployment of IPv6 caused packet storms in the MIT Computer Science and AI Lab's network

They were relying on Spanning Tree in a who knows how big broadcast domain. Firstly, that's just begging for things to hit the fan. A single device having a meltdown will cause exactly this, a broadcast storm that is able to take down the entire campus, because it was a single broadcast domain.

Secondly, it is a security nightmare. No amount of links or switch capacity will suffice in a single broadcast domain campus, relying on STP, if port isolation and proxy-arp is enabled, along with DHCP snooping, arp inspection etc. So, port isolation is not turned on. Isolation also creates a requirement for a pyramid-shaped network so nobody wants to do that anyway. But back on point, MITM-heaven, anyone can do what ever they want because the L2-infrastructure is not limiting anything. Ethernet does not care about security and Internet Protocol only implements or allows to implement security in gateways that interconnect subnets that reside on separate broadcast domains.

Routing is the answer and this is why I route on the access-layer, as well as on aggregation and core -layers. Route loops are very rare with OSPF and broadcast storms are limited to single switches if you route at access-layer. Also the posible issues with untested code-paths are minimized this way, since none of the switches are seeing more than the equal amount of hosts as it has ports.

I do not agree with SLAAC because I do not believe in broadcast domains the size of a /64 so I'd deploy DHCPv6 in every possible braodcast domain that does not have Android devices in them. Luckily there is no place for Android in wired networks and especially datacenters, so I can happily deploy DHCPv6 in those. And if I ever need to service Android-devices, I can dualstack and let the devices know of DNS-service with DHCPv4! Take that, Lorenzo! Hah! Outsmarted you there!

Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by geofft on Saturday January 05, 2019 @10:09PM (#18836300)
I mean, sure, CSAIL might have been wrong. (Worth mentioning this is just a single building, not all of MIT.) But if even the MIT computer science network isn't set up "right," there's doubtless a huge amount of technical debt for everyone else who's not an MIT nerd to clean up before they can make IPv6 work. And IPv6 would have been more successful if the designers had taken that into account.
Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by Dylan16807 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @01:54AM (#18836993)
The switches being good at ARP and bad at an alternative isn't down to technical merits, it's down to which one existed first.

And it sounds like turning the intelligent feature off and treating the packets as pure broadcast, just like ARP packets, would have fixed the problem. If the switch can't do that in the right way, it's not the protocol's fault.

Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by d00bianista on Sunday January 06, 2019 @10:37AM (#18838793)
Yup, turning off snooping would have fixed the issue at hand but not the poor choice of relying on STP for redundancy.

I've seen this happen a few times in my life in production systems, designed by someone else. Overload a switch somehow and it goes straight in ludacris mode because of the topology. Properly configured networks suffer minor outages only in case of single device meltdowns.

Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by Dylan16807 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @11:46AM (#18839134)
It seems like it took multiple switches melting down from bad software design to cause the problems. I originally had a line about the risk of large broadcast domains but the comments on the post claim they were actually pretty small.
Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by d00bianista on Sunday January 06, 2019 @10:28AM (#18838750)
Large L2-networks never work well, they all have some issues. Their existence is purely based on lazyness or believing that Ethernet works like the water main... I admit that I might be more obsessive compulsive than most but I find reconfiguring networks to be a whole lot of fun :)

And no matter how smart the peole on campus are, there will always be someone who cannot accept that someone else is more right. I have first hand experience of this since I have tunneled IPv6 at home and know pretty quickly if someone does not listen to ICMPv6 Packet Too Big -messages. Not the first time I contact people about it but so far the only one I have not been able to convince is exactly someone really smart on some campus somewhere. I wrote many emails and tried to explain that IPv6 allows MTU's as low as 1280 bytes and that ICMPv6 is a must allow protocol but nope.

Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by apple4ever on Saturday January 05, 2019 @12:56PM (#18833052)
This this this.

IPv5 could’ve been the extending IPv4 address space, and IPv6 could have all the other changes.

But they didn’t want that, because reasons.

Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by atesti on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:45PM (#18841835)
When I try to open https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=32621 it wants a login, so someone switched this bug to hidden.

Here is a copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20170324213950/https://code.goog...

Re:Is there hope for IPv6? by markbnj on Saturday January 05, 2019 @02:33PM (#18833696)
Thanks for the link to that MIT packet storm postmortem. The comments thread following contains a pretty fascinating debate involving some members of the original IETF committee and RFC authors.