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Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by resters on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:33PM (#18817018)
The major takeaway is that one can't count on the NYT to challenge powerful interests. This makes the NYT a powerful conservative force in US culture.

It follows that most of the articles that appear opposed to powerful interests are a) inconsequential, or b) used as a distraction, helping to create the impression that the paper is anything but a powerful conservative force.

It's no accident that the paper ran the Judith Miller work selling the Iraq war, or that it was an early participant in the smear campaign against Assange, or that it is a thought leader on the threat posed by China. Sure there are stories about CSAs and the homeless, but ultimately it's a big budget right wing PR operation, intent on preserving the status quo.

For even more obvious evidence, just look at the people whose weddings are covered in the paper's nuptials section -- predominantly children of powerful elites who the paper wishes to flatter with its coverage.

If one were to ask "what kind of coverage might we expect from a paper controlled by a billionaire industrialist?", we might actually predict a right-wing perspective. But due to the Times' history as a progressive paper (most notably the writings of Frederick Law Olmsted which fueled the abolitionist movement), the paper is uncritically viewed by many in the present day as a voice that opposes the right wing, authoritarian social goals held by powerful elites.

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by the_rosentotter on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:50PM (#18817184)
I think the big papers (New York Times, Washington Post) have always been the voice of the establishment. I remember reading their editorials broadly condemning the labor movement while it was fighting for basic rights (and being slaughtered by public and privatized law enforcement) in the middle of the 19th century. Perhaps at times more humanist than others, but nevertheless.

I also think it is really obvious that it would be this way. There is hardly any money in selling newspapers, even well before the internet completely obliterated that business. But shaping public opinion? That is valuable beyond measure, for the right (moneyed) interest groups.

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by pm90 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:43PM (#18817834)
Washington Post seems to be a lot better about being a neutral outlet with quality journalism. Although... being owned by Bezos makes me wonder how long they can remain that way.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by acct1771 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @10:38PM (#18821777)
$600m for AWS.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by hopler on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:52PM (#18817210)
How is the new york times staff or owners profiting from supporting those moneyed interests?
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by the_rosentotter on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:41PM (#18817803)
I don't know that the editors and writers profit directly, beyond their salaries. More like the companies are run at a loss in order to control the conversation. Of course seats are filled with people that push the line the owners prefer.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by cwkoss on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:06PM (#18817395)
Ad buys.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by radicaldreamer on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:13PM (#18817471)
And access.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by fumar on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:35PM (#18817729)
Targeted ad buys to the highest bidder.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by fmajid on Friday January 04, 2019 @02:02PM (#18826695)
The owners like to think of themselves as the decision-making elite of the country, and the White House flatters that delusion by giving them illusion of being consulted. This creates sympathy for the WH's views at the top of the NYT, and that attitude percolates implicitly to the editors.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by sDlEzAtyoNAz on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:36PM (#18817740)
By having a financial stake in things other than the paper.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by rkagerer on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:19PM (#18817532)
I don't think that's the takeaway the author means to convey. The picture he paints of the Times is that they've become much more resilient to political pressure as a result of his ordeal.

In fact the article closes:

Since then, the Times has been much more willing to stand up to the government and refuse to go along with White House demands to hold or kill stories.

I think the major takeaway is really the erosion of journalistic protections which has occurred over the last decade+.

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by amrx431 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @10:29PM (#18821740)
> The picture he paints of the Times is that they've become much more resilient to political pressure as a result of his ordeal

Not really though. One has to look at the articles and values espoused by the newspaper and not an individual's assertions to determine where the newspaper stands. A news paper that espoused the establishment's line of Saddam Hussien possessing weapons of mass destruction which factually was wrong cannot claim to be resilient to political pressure. Look at its coverage on plethora of issues from labour movements, civil rights, Cuban missile crisis, interventions in South America, financing of Contras , coverage of China, and middle east. It has always supported and validated the establishment's position even though now we know that the establishment was wrong in every single of this.

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by fmajid on Friday January 04, 2019 @02:08PM (#18826757)
He is trying to whitewash his record, and that of Judy Miller (who escaped the full censure she deserved because she is a personal friend of Arthur Sulzberger, the owner of the NYT).

Risen should have been fired for the Wen-Ho Lee with hunt alone, where the Federal judge in charge of the case apologized on behalf of the judicial branch of the Federal government to Mr. Lee for the way he was mistreated, with Risen acting as a cheerleader for the notorious Notra Trulock.

He does have a point about the Plame affair, but there is a big difference between journalists helping cover up malfeasance in public office and those protecting whistleblowers. This could be addressed by extending the whistleblower statutes to cover journalists.

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by baursak on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:54PM (#18817977)
> It follows that most of the articles that appear opposed to powerful interests are a) inconsequential, or b) used as a distraction, helping to create the impression that the paper is anything but a powerful conservative force.

It could also be taking on a rival powerful establishment interests, like in Democrats vs Republican type bickering.

Chomsky in his famous Andrew Marr interview addressed Marr's example of Watergate scandal as one part of the establishment defending itself against another part of the establishment, thus allowing the story to be broken. He compared Watergate, which everybody knows about, to a much bigger scandal of the same time, COINTELPRO, which relatively few people have even heard about.

The entire interview is worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjENnyQupow

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by tmaly on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:38PM (#18817764)
Not only the NYT, other mainstream sources will not shake the boat if ad revenue is at stake. The Internet was the wild west early on, but it did provide a medium to discuss issues and foster many different points of view. It seems the walled gardens have taken over and the de-platforming is beginning to curtail some points of view whether you agree with them or not.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by briandear on Thursday January 03, 2019 @04:05PM (#18819267)
Wedding coverage in The NY Times is paid, just like the obituaries.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by teilo on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:15PM (#18817495)
Conservative in the sense of conserving, which doesn't always fit the right/left modality.

It's as Chesterton said, "The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by fmajid on Friday January 04, 2019 @01:52PM (#18826589)
The NYT is not useful as a source of important news. It is useful as a barometer of what a portion of the US establishment thinks. It's pro-Iraq war cheerleading predicted there would be no significant pushback against it, for instance.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by tivert on Thursday January 03, 2019 @02:05PM (#18818107)
> but ultimately [the NYT is] a big budget right wing PR operation, intent on preserving the status quo.

I think that's misleading, bordering on libel. Even this article cited cases (e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/bush-lets-us-spy...) where the NYT ran stories that challenged powerful interests and the status quo, directly against the personally stated wishes of a conservative president.

The truth is that things are more complicated than black and white. Some might be disappointed that the NYT doesn't always gleefully poke at the eyes of a particular power whenever it can, but like every human and human organization, it doesn't always live up to its own ideals or the ideals that have been applied to it.

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by sDlEzAtyoNAz on Thursday January 03, 2019 @03:22PM (#18818930)
>If one were to ask "what kind of coverage might we expect from a paper controlled by a billionaire industrialist?", we might actually predict a right-wing perspective.

That depends on what he's selling, and also on what his allies in government or elsewhere want him to publish.

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by justaman on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:42PM (#18817097)
I think its narrow minded to assume a tool of the government is right wing, or left wing for that matter.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by Tomte on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:45PM (#18817134)
I think in his comment he is making a clear difference between "the right" and "conservative", which is a related, but not entirely identical, term.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by someguy101010 on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:03PM (#18817338)
Exactly right. Conservatives vs Liberal != Republicans vs. Democrats
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by resters on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:45PM (#18817128)
I agree, but I'm using the term in a way that resonates with the popular use of the word in modern American politics. The point might be lost if I instead used the more precise phrase "authoritarian, status-quo preserving".
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by jlavine on Thursday January 03, 2019 @02:00PM (#18818040)
My impression is that "left" is used synonymously with the Democratic party and "right" with the Republican party in practically all American media. By this popular understanding, calling the New York Times right wing makes no sense, as it's very clearly allied itself with the Democratics. The Democratic party has been just as dedicated to the corporate and military status quo as the Republican party. The two parties only differ practically on social wedge issues.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by blindwatchmaker on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:21PM (#18817556)
I think it's pretty fair to say that the leadership of both major parties, elites in and outside the government, and the military/intelligence services are right wing, and have been historically so in the United States barring the brief period between the New Deal and the destruction of Keynesianism in the 80s.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by sDlEzAtyoNAz on Thursday January 03, 2019 @02:36PM (#18818432)
How do you explain the policies where the right wing has been steadily losing ground for the past 50-100 years? For example on immigration, on gender equality, or sexual liberation? Are the elites just losing those battles? Because it doesn't seem like they mind.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by blindwatchmaker on Thursday January 03, 2019 @03:36PM (#18819047)
Not sure that contradicts what I said? For example, Richard Nixon was a social conservative that ran on a backlash against socially progressive causes, but was still a left wing president. Supported industrial regulation with the EPA, instituted price controls, governed fully within the Keynesian framework of the day. He was to the left of most of the modern day Democratic party.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by sDlEzAtyoNAz on Thursday January 03, 2019 @04:47PM (#18819622)
You're claiming the leadership of both parties are right wing, and elites inside and outside of government are right wing. Why, then, has the right wing lost so much ground on those issues I listed over the past 50-100 years?

Do you deny the issues I listed are issues where the right wing has lost ground in the past 50-100 years? If so, what do you even mean by "right wing"?

If not, then your position is that the elites have been losing on those positions for the past 50-100 years. Is that what you think?

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by blindwatchmaker on Thursday January 03, 2019 @06:42PM (#18820526)
I'm not really sure what to say. I thought I was pretty clear in my previous post?
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by sDlEzAtyoNAz on Thursday January 03, 2019 @09:21PM (#18821461)
>I'm not really sure what to say.

You could start with answering the questions that I asked.

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by blindwatchmaker on Friday January 04, 2019 @11:41AM (#18825357)
Perhaps you could acknowledge what I've actually written instead of sidestepping around it?
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by sDlEzAtyoNAz on Friday January 04, 2019 @03:18PM (#18827257)
What is there to acknowledge other than your claim that the elites inside and out of government are historically right wing, except for a few brief periods of time? The bit about Nixon being a left-wing president? I don't care about your classification of Nixon as a left-wing president. It has nothing to do with your claim that the elites inside and out of government have historically been right wing.
Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by resters on Thursday January 03, 2019 @06:41PM (#18820512)
The perception that right wing has lost ground is an illusion. There is dramatically less dissent in America today than there was in the past, much less threat of any social movement that would endanger the status quo.

To a large extent, the right wing policies of decades past have worked incredibly well to focus authoritarian force where it is most useful to right wing goals:

- Suppression of the black population, the crack epidemic, and destruction of the black power movement.

- Massive increases in the number of people in prison, but most notable is the successful campaign to make Americans view prisoners as subhuman and deserving of extremely cruel and unusual treatment.

- The dramatic increase in the ideas of American Exceptionalism and the associated force projection after the cold war. It was not certain this was possible, but it has been achieved thanks to successful fear mongering PR about terrorism and militant Islam.

- Dramatic increases in social inequality. There are many reasons for this, but foremost among them is a loss of social power by the have nots relative to the haves, and the resulting shift in wealth patterns.

- Low voter turnout rates. Americans have been made to feel absurdly proud to live in a democracy, yet only around half see any value in casting a vote. This is akin to convincing the people that pine needle tea is delicious and contains many essential nutrients.

- Broad support for unprecedentedly generous corporate welfare. More and more industries are viewed as too important to fail, and significant societal resources are allocated to the preservation of the status quo. Chieftains in those industries have captured massive upside gains while successfully foisting downside risks onto society as a whole. There is no serious consideration among regulators or officials that the incentive system is remotely unjust, and we are told to be grateful that the industries were saved.

- Widespread hero worship of cops, military, and other projections of authoritarian force. The NFL is sponsored by and heavily promotes the US military, and police departments use aggressive PR stories about kitten rescues, etc., to help whitewash their image in the face of more and more examples of profound misconduct. Further, there are rarely any investigations into such misconduct (abuse of power, etc.) that reach beyond low level participants.

Those are just a few examples, but most of the increasing trends are broadly right-wing in their nature and are supported by various groups. Consider the example of US military intervention in foreign lands. Some support it because the "evil" regime oppresses women, some support it because the regime is brown-skinned, some support it to help "ensure stability" in the region, etc. There is now a grab bag of reasons to support American Exceptionalism and glorification of military force projection, which is broadly right wing, yet the options appeal to people across the entire American political spectrum, including the so-called left that seemingly believes that smart bombs are the best way to improve womens' rights worldwide.

Consider the rhetoric around gentrification for a host of other examples of the built-in right wing bias in American culture.

In other words, right wing views have become so utterly dominant in American culture that there is no longer any real need to add oxygen to it, so the political right wing appears to be losing ground.

Consider all the laws that prohibit employees from accepting jobs in the same industry, laws that extent patent protection to absurd time durations, the general public complacency about unauthorized wiretapping and more broadly the Snowden revelations. Nobody cares about this stuff because the right wing view considers it normal and appropriate/acceptable.

Even something as gut wrenching as the ICE camps for children was a major issue only because it offered partisan benefit. Obama took no heat for doing essentially the same kind of detention system. Then magically a few months later everyone has forgotten about it now that it's no longer politically useful.

The illusion of left vs right makes people feel that there is actually dissent in the US. There is very little.

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by rdtsc on Thursday January 03, 2019 @08:01PM (#18821069)
An important example you had is criminalization and imprisonment. It turns about Bill Clinton, a Democratic president, was the one responsible for the terrible 1994 crime bill (3 strikes comes from there, etc). He was strongly supported by his wife Hillary the future Senator, Sec. of State and presidential candidate. Her comment calling African American youth "superpredators" was very telling: https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/aug...

At the same time it was surprising to see for once, Trump and everyone else back the recent prison reform bill:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/18/trump-sign-p...

---

The package, which would immediately release 4,000 federal prisoners according to some advocates, passed the House judiciary committee last week and is likely to be brought up for a vote early next week. The bill would also expand compassionate release, giving elderly and terminally ill inmates a path home, and invest tens of millions in re-entry programs. It would also end the shackling of women giving birth behind bars and provide them with necessary hygiene items at no charge.

---

Re:My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the... by sDlEzAtyoNAz on Thursday January 03, 2019 @09:19PM (#18821450)
You've ignored the examples I gave of policies where the right wing has clearly lost ground, and in doing so have missed my point. I'm not claiming the right wing has lost ground everywhere. I'm suggesting the right wing has lost ground where it is in conflict with the interests of the elites. And it has typically gained ground in areas that are of high importance to the elites and relative unimportance to the bulk of the people who make up the right wing.

A large influx of economic migrants is in the interest of the elites, not the bulk of the people who make up the right wing. It is the elites who have pushed for and benefited from those policies, and they have been wildly successful.

Equality among the sexes not a right wing goal, and that is the direction society has moved over the past 100 years.

Sexual liberation, and the related disappearance of Christianity from popular culture, is not a right wing goal.

Social inequality and corporate welfare are goals of the elite, not the right wing, which primarily consists of rural working class white men who are victims of the policies meant to bring about those goals as much as anyone else.

Military intervention is a project of the elite and transcends political parties in the US. Working class Republicans would never have dreamed up going to Iraq or Libya or Syria to oust a dictator, any more than working class Democrats would have. Either side can be made to support such a conflict as we have seen by taking advantage of in-group out-group tendencies, but they'd never come up with it themselves. They have no reason to. But the elites do, so it happened.

You're right that there is little real dissent in the US. The reason is that real dissent is suppressed by the elites, not protected by them. It's harassed and deliberately targeted by government officials. It's kicked off of platforms run by the elites. It's viciously attacked at every turn by the elite-owned corporate media. If you want to know where the real dissent is, look for the ideas that the elites actually try to stop.