Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid Brexit shutdown

Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Piskvorrr on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:56AM (#18816613)

That's going to backfire, though.

The Scottish seem to think that when seceding from a Union is a legitimate option, and if a referendum can trigger a secession from the European Union, then, well, what about those 1707 Acts of Union with England? I believe this will happen come April, and that the current pro-brexit crowd will promptly label it undemocratic and unpatriotic - after all, breaking free from the yoke of Brussels is Something Completely Different than rejecting the friendly rule of Westminster. Right?

Madness, I tell you, with only more madness in sight.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by spuz on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:28PM (#18816958)

To give more detail on this issue:

If we were to accept May's deal as it was in December, the UK would leave the EU but remain entirely within the custom's union. Afterwards, plans would be made for NI to stay within the custom's union and the rest of the UK to leave. However, there is a term in the 1800 amendment of the the 1707 Acts of Union that says:

“that in all treaties made by his Majesty, his heirs, and successors, with any foreign power, his Majesty’s subjects of Ireland shall have the same privileges, and be on the same footing as his Majesty’s subjects of Great Britain.”

If this term is broken, it reverts all the countries of the UK back to individual states - i.e. Scotland would be independent by default and there is a good chance they would not vote for an amendment to the Acts of Union because they would prefer to stay in the EU.

That leaves politicians with two options: Either keep the UK in the custom's union indefinitely, or break up the United Kingdom.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/16989865.this-is-why-westm...

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Piskvorrr on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:49PM (#18817178)

That, too. I don't see any deal as likely, however - Tories seem to be steering for a hard Brexit, and Labour only presents token effort against. Hard Brexit forecast, with showers of martial law likely.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by spuz on Thursday January 03, 2019 @04:52PM (#18819666)

By hard Brexit, do you mean "no-deal"? Because they are very different things. I think no-deal is looking like the most likely outcome at the moment. I can't see any chance of the tories putting forward a harder version of the May's deal before March 19th.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Piskvorrr on Monday January 07, 2019 @07:08AM (#18844543)

I see. It's...complicated. Thanks for the clarification.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by faissaloo on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:38PM (#18817061)

I'm pro-Brexit and pro-Scottish independence, it doesn't seem to me like many Brexiters care at all what Scotland does.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by sleavey on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:10PM (#18817444)

Interesting - I've not spoken to anyone who is both pro-Brexit and pro-Scottish independence. A lot of my pro-Scottish independence friends are in favour of it as a means of getting closer ties to the EU (a la Republic of Ireland). Indeed, the main political party in Scotland is pro-independence but anti-Brexit. Polite request: would you mind giving your reasoning for this stance?

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by faissaloo on Friday January 04, 2019 @07:29PM (#18829039)

It's quite simple really, I'm pro-Brexit for two reasons primarily: The EU has legislated against religious displayed in the workplace. The EU also has anti-reverse engineering laws like the EU Trade Secrets Directive that I dislike greatly. I'm pro-Scottish independence because I believe the British government is incompetent and malicious and it is best that Scotland is kept far away from its immoral behavior.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Piskvorrr on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:44PM (#18817115)

...or Ireland, or NI, or Gibraltar, or indeed anyone at all (Wa...who?). IDGI, but whatever, that's apparently an English problem now.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by philbarr on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:06PM (#18816707)

Having another referendum now we know what the actual options for leaving are seems democratic to me. But you won't get people, including politicians, that want a no-deal brexit to agree to it.

And even though Farage himself said, "if the referendum was 52/48 to remain then in would not be the end of the matter"

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Silhouette on Thursday January 03, 2019 @06:41PM (#18820515)

Having another referendum now we know what the actual options for leaving are seems democratic to me.

I am wary of the assumption that we really do know what the actual options are for leaving now. In particular, there is at least one other avenue that has not been seriously explored so far even though it's probably the one that had most potential to achieve (or, being more blunt, any realistic possibility of achieving) some of the major changes that attracted Leave votes in the first place while still having significantly closer relations with our neighbours than just crashing out. It's also the one that many of the Brexiteers among our elected representatives have been openly advocating for some time, contrary to the various stereotypes about how the don't have any alternatives to propose.

There is a lot of political rhetoric at the moment, particularly the whole "this deal or no deal" dichotomy from the EU, but we surely wouldn't expect them to say anything else in the current context, would we? However, it doesn't take much reading between the lines to predict that if we do end up leaving with no big formal deal in March then lots of small alternative arrangements will be made very quickly and both sides will talk further about making more comprehensive and permanent arrangements down the line.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by meddlepal on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:52AM (#18816559)

I dunno about undemocratic, but definitely tainted by the smell of "keep voting until we get the right result", which has its own problems.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Piskvorrr on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:59AM (#18816649)

So, any choice ever made is permanent, never mind if the conditions change? Oh. How come the 1975 referendum is invalid then, and a new one was needed? Smells like "keep voting etc" ;o)

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by coldtea on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:15PM (#18816814)

There were 43 years in between.

If you do a new one before you even enforce the decision of the previous referendum it's hardly democracy, it's "keep voting".

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Piskvorrr on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:30PM (#18816982)

Looking at how the prospect of Brexit changed from "we'll bring you Empire 3000 and a pony" through "meh, it was all lies, but we won, nyah nyah" to "at least it won't be much worse than the Blitz...we hope," I believe that the conditions have changed enough. But whatever, let the British drive off a cliff if they so fervently desire their Splendid Isolation. Indeed, as you say, who am I to tell them "that's patently idiotic," even if I do think so.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by krapp on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:22PM (#18816891)

>So, any choice ever made is permanent, never mind if the conditions change?

Yes. That's the entire premise of a voting process. The will of the people who vote, at the time the vote is taken, is binding even if they change their minds later.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by vkou on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:28PM (#18817656)

Many parliamentary democracies have recall processes, where you can vote to remove someone that you voted to elect.

It's occasionally used when voters realize that what they voted for was incredibly stupid. So yes, you do get take-backsies in democracies.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by krapp on Thursday January 03, 2019 @02:56PM (#18818631)

If an existing process allows for it then I wouldn't consider that a "take-back." I guess it depends on the system involved.

You can't just decide a vote doesn't count because you don't like the outcome, though. Setting that precedent would mean no one who disagreed with a result would ever accept its legitimacy. There has to be a limit set somewhere.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by vkou on Thursday January 03, 2019 @05:15PM (#18819877)

You can, though, in matters of legislature and referendum.

A vote passing is not a suicide pact that locks you into that course of action between now and the heat death of the universe. It's possible to pass something, and then do another vote, later, to revert the changes you've made.

Likewise, in a parliament, you can keep bringing an issue up to a vote over, and over, and over again (See: Everything that Congress did after passing Obamacare). There's occasionally some set of procedures that prevents this kind of denial-of-service from being used all the time... And occasionally not.

This happens in referendums, as well. The same issue appears on the ballot every few years, until the people pushing it get 50% + 1 support for it.

It's often the only way to actually get social progress. Keep hammering on your pet issue, until enough people agree with you, and it wins.

As long as you're not breaking any laws, or referendum procedures, it's completely fair game.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by Piskvorrr on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:52PM (#18817215)

Ok, that makes sense. (I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole technicality of "binding" vs. "advisory")

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by petre on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:36PM (#18817735)

The ’75 referendum was for joining the EEC not the EU.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by tzmudzin on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:57AM (#18816624)

Sure. At the same time there is a difference in voting on a vague concept and voting on a specific agreement.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by walshemj on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:53AM (#18816570)

The vote was an advisory one and you would not make changes to the rules or other major changes on 50% + 1 for your local village allotment society.

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by georgeecollins on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:54AM (#18816589)

It does run the risk of seeming undemocratic. Let's say that Brexit now looses because 52% of the people vote against it. Do you let it rest there? Are you just taking votes until you get the right answer?

As an aside, while Brexit seems to be getting less popular, there is still a big constituency for it. https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-polls-show-britain-wa...

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Re:Iberia claims it is part of a department store to avoid B... by notahacker on Thursday January 03, 2019 @12:07PM (#18816722)

I don't see why Brexiters should be silenced forever if they lose the next vote, no. We repeat other votes on a regular basis, and sometimes when the facts change, politicians and the people change their minds. Something as complicated as Brexit seems like a particularly bad idea to make an exception for.

If a subsequent Remain vote resulted in a similar situation where any real world option to remain in the EU would be regarded as a betrayal worse than leaving by a large fraction of the people that voted for it, I'd think another vote was actually necessary...

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