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Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by geofft on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:30PM (#18810431)
As described in my comment above: enable power delivery without data delivery by default.
Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by floatingatoll on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:39PM (#18810499)
Counterfeit and/or unsafe USB power delivery cables are a fire hazard today, whether or not a data channel is negotiated. How does disabling data delivery improve the safety of a PD-only USB connection over a physically unsafe cable?

This crypto-signature approach is already used by the Apple MFi program, which has made it difficult-to-impossible to sell counterfeit and/or unsafe Lightning devices.

Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by geofft on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @05:07PM (#18810747)
I think we have completely unrelated threat models. I'm worried about malicious USB ports / devices trying to steal my data or at least make me have a bad day. If someone is trying to set a device on fire, authentication won't help. They just need to fail authentication and use that as the bomb's trigger.

You're worried, I think, about poor-quality devices that aren't malicious, just incompetent - or poor-quality cables. (I'm already willing to carry my own cable - I already carry a USB-A data blocker around, but USB-C data blockers don't seem to exist.) I think that can be solved without cryptographic authentication, with the standard approach of having a certification organization like UL or the USB-IF themselves investigate cable/charger production and test them. It seems the major problem here is with Amazon listing cables without showing whether they have certifications (or checking whether certifications are forged), and that's a general Amazon problem with poor-quality hardware and counterfeits.

This article is talking about autorun, Stuxnet, etc. so I think they're focusing on the latter. If the USB-IF wanted to use digital signatures to authenticate cables I'd be more on board, but if they do that, they should just be authenticating cables, not devices. (A cable, I believe, can be engineered to just cut the circuits if a device tries to pass too much voltage, or is wired backwards, or something.)

Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by gumby on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @05:30PM (#18810961)
> USB-C data blockers don't seem to exist.

They do -- I carry one one of my employees made in our lab. Search for "usb-c condom" or "usb-c data blocker" and you will find several offered for sale.

Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by geofft on Thursday January 03, 2019 @09:19AM (#18815229)
The ones I've seen work by severing all of the data pins, limiting you to the old 5 V * 2 A limit. Have you seen any data blockeds that support the power delivery spec and are suitable for devices that need over 10 W (larger laptops, the Switch, etc.)?
Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by gumby on Thursday January 03, 2019 @03:20PM (#18818911)
I have one that negotiates power delivery on both ends. But I don’t believe it was manufactured commercially — it’s just a bare board with no housing. I’ll ask the guy who made it if he’d publish the design files.
Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by Spooky23 on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @05:52PM (#18811130)
There’s a whole spectrum of bad actors.

Incompetence is scarier than malicious actors imo, and expecting users to carry USB condoms around seems like a bad idea.

Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by floatingatoll on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @06:45PM (#18811479)
I assume USB-IF wants all uses of the word USB with respect to any hardware - including cables - to be backed by a DigiCert signature, and all other uses to be rejected by non-developer-mode devices so their enforcement success rate improves versus generic knockoffs that can’t easily be sued.
Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by userbinator on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @06:23PM (#18811339)
difficult-to-impossible

Apparently not according to the Chinese, who made the first clone (based on an 8051 microcontroller IIRC) within months of the official release. They're still in an ongoing cat-and-mouse game with Apple.

Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by floatingatoll on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @06:40PM (#18811451)
Difficult-or-impossible to bring to market for sale to all iPhone users worldwide, not difficult to reverse engineer on a bench.

By controlling issuance of permission to use the connector, Apple is able to prohibit non-compliant products from becoming widespread worldwide. (And even China just last month declared their intent to make IP enforcement viable, which further strengthens Apple’s position with respect to MFi.)

The USB folks appear to believe that if they introduce a similar licensing arrangement for USB, they’ll be able to refuse licenses to unsafe implementations to deny them access to the worldwide USB market. MFi still works today, so I certainly don’t blame them for trying.

Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by geofft on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @07:05PM (#18811603)
That means they don't need cryptography for this, right?
Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by floatingatoll on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @07:36PM (#18811791)
That is not a meaning I would have derived from my reply. You’re welcome to construct a scenario explaining what you mean, but the question alone offers no guidance on what you’re thinking to permit me to construct a reply.
Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by geofft on Thursday January 03, 2019 @09:21AM (#18815246)
You've argued that legal protections, including China's stronger IP stance, means that USB-IF can be confident about cracking down on counterfeiting, and that it doesn't matter that the connector is east to reverse-engineer. If so, how is a cryptographic authentication scheme as described in the article (including authentication of devices, not just connectors and cables) relevant, let alone useful? How does it help anti-counterfeiting and why are the legal mechanisms by themselves insufficient?
Re:USB Type-C to Become More Secure with Authentication Stan... by floatingatoll on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:31PM (#18847461)
I'm not planning to follow up further on this thread, sorry. If you are able to define an anti-counterfeiting mechanism that does not depend on cryptographic signatures, you could probably corner a billion dollar market. I encourage doing so, but have no further assistance to offer you.