News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by flexie on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:34AM (#18804956)
The article doesn't really mention that most of these expansions will be ready 20-40 years into the future (if not delayed).

If you buy a house in an LA suburb hoping that you will soon get subway nearby, you might get it once the mortgage is paid out and the kids have left for college.

What will the technology be like in 20-40 years? Everybody surely have cheap electric scooters and bikes or other electric devices and airbag helmets. Few, if any, combustion engine cars are left on the streets. Truly self driving cars are likely too. Drones that fly you across town? Boring tunnels in multiple levels? Shuttles to Mars?

I am not saying the subways shouldn't be built or that planning decades ahead is bad. I love subways. But in the area of transportation we will see huge changes in the coming decades.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by bobthepanda on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:43AM (#18804986)
Of course there will be changes. But the subways and light rails will still be required for a certain level of throughput. The New York City subway, for example, carries 60K people per hour per direction on a pair of tracks, while a car lane carries somewhere in the range of 2K per hour per direction. Self driving cars may improve lane utilization, but not by up to 30x. Shoving people into cattle cars hurtling down a track is just more space-efficient than dedicating an engine and seats for at most four people at a time.

Scooters and bikes have an effective range, particularly in places like LA that can have quite long commute distances.

Motive power source doesn't really change much.

Intra-urban flight would increase required energy for transport a lot and also move the crapshoot that is today's roads and traffic above our heads, ready to hurtle down at us.

Boring tunnels being cheaper has yet to be proven, since the main issues with tunneling are that tunnels have to be tailored to ground conditions.

Shuttles to Mars doesn't change how I get to and from work across town, the same way that airplanes did not.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by foota on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:19AM (#18805093)
Shouldn't a bus have similar throughput to a subway though, with no traffic?
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by jcranmer on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @08:50AM (#18806111)
A single bus can move about 100-200 people. A single subway train can move about 1000-1500 people, an order of magnitude more.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by closeparen on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @09:49PM (#18812417)
A single bus has 25-40 seats, so those other 160 people are going to be pretty miserable.

An articulated bus might be able to move closer to 100 people comfortably.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by leetcrew on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:44PM (#18808156)
wouldn't it be more fair to compare a single subway car with a bus? nothing stops you from running a "train" of buses.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by munk-a on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:11PM (#18808455)
It isn't really that fair, the critical time sink starts shifting to offload/onload time and there is a lot of waste having to load each bus individually.

This is why developed subway systems with high usage end up with large trains, that's the best way to speed up the system, reducing the delay caused by trains waiting for other trains that are stopped in the station.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:32PM (#18809286)
Even a "train" of two buses is impractical for most bus routes because of the weight, poor turning radius and so on. I'm pretty sure going any longer than two is virtually impossible.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by lotsofpulp on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:46AM (#18805174)
Embarking and disembarking passengers takes much longer on a bus.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by sempron64 on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:55PM (#18810100)
On the Select Bus Service (certain express routes) in NYC, passengers buy tickets outside the bus and ticket inspectors spot check them during the ride, similar to trains. Passengers can get on through the back door as well. This significantly improves embarkation time, making it similar to a train.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by jimktrains2 on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @05:26AM (#18805318)
Subways have multiple cars per train, anywhere from 1 to 10, most places falling into 4-6. A bus has one; even articulated buses usual have a smaller capacity than a single subway car.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by chrisseaton on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @07:30AM (#18805767)
No - subway trains can travel 50 mph or more - a bus can’t do that on city centre roads.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by naravara on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:45PM (#18808783)
>No - subway trains can travel 50 mph or more - a bus can’t do that on city centre roads.

If you have really comprehensive coverage in a densely built area you'd be stopping too often for those top speeds to matter.

This is the problem with the Acela. It can technically go up to 150mph, but it has to stop so often that it averages 60mph for the journey.

For longer distances with limited stops, the speed and shigh capacity of a train are good. But to really fill out coverage in a dense area, short wait times and short distances between stops and destinations should be your chief considerations. Buses and streetcars just do that better. Though really, once you get past a certain level of density you need all of the above.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by shhehebehdh on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @07:49AM (#18805836)
In theory, but NYCs rarely go that fast. This is changing though. I saw a news article recently about how they are lifting the speed limits on some sections of track as repaired signals come online.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by michaelper22 on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @11:25AM (#18807303)
Though this probably counts as rarely, least some of the trunk line I've been on give the illusion of high-ish speeds. Examples: - Queens Blvd express (Forest Hills to Roosevelt Ave, Roosevelt to 36 St) - 7 Ave IRT express (from far downtown to 96th St) - Lexington express (City Hall to 125th, save for going through the switches south of 42nd St)
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by rayiner on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:11PM (#18807785)
The DC Metro averages 33 mph, including stops. I’d be surprised if NYC’s express lines didn’t hit 50 routinely.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by sempron64 on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:56PM (#18810113)
They do not, the max speed limits on rare long stretches of track are around 45 mph. Most stretches are well below this.

https://ny.curbed.com/2018/12/19/18146933/mta-new-york-subwa...

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by bobthepanda on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @07:04PM (#18811595)
It is worth noting that NYC and DC have fundamentally different design philosophies that result in different average speeds.

New York's system is designed around walking to stations. All the way to the end of the lines, stations tend to be about a half mile apart. There are express lines but even those become locals on at least one end, with half-mile stop spacing.

DC's is an auto-oriented system, where you're expected to drive to the stop and then take the train in from the suburbs. As a result, while there is dense stop spacing in the center, distances between stations in the suburbs get progressively longer and longer. It's over these long stretches in the suburbs that DC is able to attain much higher speeds.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by LeanderK on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @05:30AM (#18805330)
> 20-40 years into the future (if not delayed)

that seems to be unreasonably long. In germany, both the city I am studying at and the city I was born are undertaking big changes in their transportation infrastructure, and both don't take that long. In munich, building just started and is expected to last unit 2026 [1]. And we always complain that it's taking too long to plan and build!

40 years seems to be crazy! You would have to start repairing the old stuff when the whole project is finished.

Or are you talking about the whole process, including the financing? Then it's more understandable, many big project here also stall for 20 years until everyone has enough money and the political will to follow through. But I thought the financing is covered due to the sales-tax increase.

While it's easy to complain about projects not moving for 20 years, the sums are often quite enourmus and i am not sure whether inefficiencies are to blame, or whether gathering enough money just takes a long time.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trunk_line_2_(Munich_S-Bahn)

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by flexie on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @06:23AM (#18805515)
It's simply the planning of it. A lot of the 100 mile expansion is not planned to start until 10-20-30 years from now. I guess that's due to financing.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by guitarbill on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @08:20AM (#18805958)
Let's not get too smug with things like Stuttgart 21, Transrapid München, or cities like Aachen getting rid of their tram network (and regretting it now AFAIK). And having a public that values and prioritises mass transport is not a given.

Admittedly, I'm a bit torn on this. Since infrastructure is so important to the liveability and growth of a city, and any sort of long-term thinking is a good thing. But predicting the future is hard, and having a 40 year plan survive (short-term) politics is also unlikely.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by LeanderK on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @09:04AM (#18806185)
I agree, i think I was more confused. I thought he meant the time to realize the projects, not the complete cycle from estimating whether it's doable to financing to building.

There are also project on hold for 30 years in munich.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by Rebelgecko on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:02PM (#18810159)
Part of it is spreading out the costs over time. None of the individual construction projects is taking 40 years, LA Metro just has a grand plan for the next 15 years, the 15 years after that, etc. Some things take time because of environmental reviews, buying land (or legally forcing people to leave), planning, things like that.

Another reason why they are building in stages is that some of the new transit projects aren't as useful until other ones are finished. For example, there's plans for a big tunnel (a few miles longer than the one you linked) that they're trying to finish in time for the 2028 Olympics (although construction hasn't started yet). A lot of the projects on the other side of the tunnel are being done with the purpose of getting people to the tunnel,

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by skookumchuck on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:52AM (#18805011)
> 20-40 years into the future (if not delayed)

For comparison, the first intercontinental railroad was built by hand and muscle in 6 years. Including the bridges, cuts, and grading. Including through a mountain range.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by bobthepanda on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:58AM (#18805032)
It was also built when nobody who the government cared about owned land in the West, before pesky environmental regulations, and when 20MPH was an acceptable speed for a train.

Today California High Speed Rail and Texas Central and Florida's Brightline have to deal with angry suburban neighbors, angry farmers, and legal and environmental review processes that are the result of a century and a half's worth of hindsight.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by skookumchuck on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:32AM (#18805128)
Seattle is taking 30 years or so to build a handful of miles of track.

There really isn't any "environmental impact" for construction within the city (the environment there is already destroyed). But that sure does provide fodder for endless delays and expense.

> 20MPH

Travel from Omaha to San Francisco was 4 days at the opening, including stops. The distance was 1,912 miles. So the average was indeed 20, but to achieve that average (including stops) it must have been going at least 40 on much of the route.

Quite a difference from the alternative, months of walking.

If you like, the first Boston subway was completed in 1897, it took 2 years, and it was all done with muscle, too.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by bobthepanda on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:53AM (#18813383)
The Boston subway was built by tearing up a street from building wall to building wall, and several people died during the process. Seattle's light rail construction is far less disruptive and deadly.

Seattle is a bit of an odd case when talking about construction timelines, because the projects are drawn out mostly due to a state law that limits how much Sound Transit can bond out at any given time. Anything more aggressive than that would require passing a 60% vote threshold, which would be quite the landslide election. (It's also how the first Seattle subway attempt died.)

Environmental impact doesn't just concern spoilage of a pristine environment; among other things, it can consider impacts on drainage and runoff, noise pollution, construction impacts, efficacy at diverting car trips and CO2 emissions, etc.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by jcranmer on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @08:27AM (#18805993)
> For comparison, the first intercontinental railroad was built by hand and muscle in 6 years.

Actual construction, even nowadays, is pretty fast. What takes 20-40 years is the long-term planning. By comparison, the first intercontinental railroad was advocated first in 1832 (before most of the American West was even American), and serious planning first started in the late 1840s and early 1850s, which led to the Gadsden Purchase in 1853.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by astura on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:49PM (#18808216)
Um... Its estimated that somewhere between 1,000-2,000 people died building the first transcontinental railroad. That wouldn't exactly be acceptable today.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by magduf on Thursday January 03, 2019 @10:34AM (#18815824)
No, but we also have lots of mechanized equipment now that eliminates most of the danger and speeds up work enormously. There's really no excuse for construction taking as long as it does now.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by naravara on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:39PM (#18808727)
>Everybody surely have cheap electric scooters and bikes or other electric devices and airbag helmets. Few, if any, combustion engine cars are left on the streets. Truly self driving cars are likely too.

None of those are mass transit. Personal vehicles are fine and dandy, but they can only move one person at a time and will always, by definition, take up more space and resources per person than a solution that can ferry tens or hundreds of people at a time.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by floatrock on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:39PM (#18809359)
Scooters and bikes are not exclusive of mass transit -- they complement mass transit by working on the "last mile" problem that no mass transit system has ever really found a good solution to.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by naravara on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:48PM (#18809449)
In a walkable area there is no "last mile" problem for able bodied people. A mile is a perfectly reasonable 20 minute walk provided the streets are safe. And if the streets are built safely, scooters and bikes will be usable as a natural consequence.

And if you're disabled, scooters and bikes aren't helping you much anyway.

Scooters and bikes are great supplements to a system, but they won't actually do much good without a mass transit system to be the backbone for getting around.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by magduf on Thursday January 03, 2019 @10:30AM (#18815788)
>And if you're disabled, scooters and bikes aren't helping you much anyway.

Lots of disabled Americans ride around on scooters (4-wheeled motorized carts). They would do much better on the streets of Europe where there's bike lanes and nice sidewalks than in suburban America, though they'd have problems navigating the shops.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by naravara on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:38AM (#18816401)
>Lots of disabled Americans ride around on scooters (4-wheeled motorized carts).

I believed we were talking about the razor scooters/scoot-share services, which are too finicky for people with mobility issues to be able to use on bumpy streets.

The types of scooters you're talking about basically use the same infrastructure as wheelchairs. So if you're pedestrian friendly and have inclusive urban design (like curb-cuts) that won't really be a big deal.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by closeparen on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @09:42PM (#18812388)
20 minutes is practically an entire commute. It’s not at all reasonable to burn that much time on the last mile alone.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by naravara on Thursday January 03, 2019 @11:48AM (#18816516)
>20 minutes is practically an entire commute. It’s not at all reasonable to burn that much time on the last mile alone.

If 20 minutes is "practically an entire commute" then you're already in a dense enough area to where transit coverage should minimize the number of people who are a mile away. At that point, proximity to transit just becomes part of what you pay for in your house. If the transit is there, development patterns will tend to build up around it.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by closeparen on Thursday January 03, 2019 @01:51PM (#18817937)
The median commute time in the US is 25 minutes, up to 32 in the most congested metro areas. This is overwhelmingly due to driving on freeways across suburbia, enabled by sufficiently low density.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by naravara on Thursday January 03, 2019 @04:45PM (#18819603)
>The median commute time in the US is 25 minutes, up to 32 in the most congested metro areas. This is overwhelmingly due to driving on freeways across suburbia, enabled by sufficiently low density.

Firstly, that's more like exurbia than suburbia. Suburbia is characterized by low density sprawl surrounding a denser, urban core that acts as the economic anchor. This is also where the nightmarishly long commute times tend to be: (https://www.caliper.com/featured-maps/xus-commute-time-mapti...).

Secondly, people decide where to live and work based on commute times. In other words, people consciously choose to live in places that are within a 30 minute commute from work, and they structure their days (when they wake up, when they leave the office, etc) around minimizing it. This same mechanic works if the transit is available. People will consciously choose to live closer to the transit hubs that minimize the lengths of their commutes, promoting density around the bus or train routes.

This is why the "last mile" problem is not as relevant of a consideration as people think once you get past the "windshield bias" a bit. Firstly because if everyone is within a mile of a transit option then that means the [i]worst case scenario[/i] is that someone has to walk a mile, and most people will choose to live within a space that's even less than that.

And secondly, because a mile isn't actually that terrible of a walk, especially if you make the walk a pleasant one. I live 2 and a half miles from my office. If I ride the bus it takes me about 20 minutes door to door with maybe 5 of those minutes involving walking to/from the bus-stop. If I walk the whole way it takes me about 45 minutes. Despite the walk being more than twice of long, though, I'm honestly indifferent between the two options. My only real consideration is whether I'm in a hurry or not, and usually if I'm in a REAL hurry I'll take a cab.

Even if it's raining, I often just take my umbrella and walk the commute because the walk is, in itself, enjoyable. It's not just a means of conveyance, it's a stroll and a source of exercise. There are plenty of murals to look at, a park to stroll through, flowers and landscaping to see, shop windows to look in on, sidewalk cafes to people watch people on awkward first-dates, etc.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by pc86 on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @09:19AM (#18806266)
> What will the technology be like in 20-40 years?

> Everybody surely have cheap electric scooters and bikes or other electric devices and airbag helmets.

> Few, if any, combustion engine cars

> Truly self driving cars

If history has taught us anything, it's that technological progress is orders of magnitude slower than people expect. The infrastructure of NYC, LA, Seattle, San Francisco, etc will not look much different in 2059 than it does today.

We'll probably still be using JavaScript, too. :/

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by naravara on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:51PM (#18808845)
>If history has taught us anything, it's that technological progress is orders of magnitude slower than people expect. The infrastructure of NYC, LA, Seattle, San Francisco, etc will not look much different in 2059 than it does today.

I think there is a Bill Gates quote about how most people overestimate how much things will change in one year and underestimate how much they will change in ten.

Of course, when you find yourself 10 years in the future you'll probably just forget how different your city used to be because the changes unfolded too slowly for you to notice they were changing. In most of these cities, for example, the infrastructure might look the same but the way people are using it is very very different.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by malvosenior on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @11:49AM (#18807545)
I don't think history has taught us that technological progress is orders of magnitude slower than people expect. Every technology the OP mentioned exists in nascent form today and didn't 10 years ago. It's totally believable that all of them will be widely deployed in 20-40 years.

The world 20-40 years ago was far more primitive than it is today.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by eesmith on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @02:53PM (#18809506)
You wrote: "Every technology the OP mentioned exists in nascent form today and didn't 10 years ago."

That is not true. Here's the list: "cheap electric scooters and bikes or other electric devices and airbag helmets. Few, if any, combustion engine cars are left on the streets. Truly self driving cars are likely too. Drones that fly you across town? Boring tunnels in multiple levels? Shuttles to Mars?"

How cheap does a cheap electric scooter need to be? Because we had electric scooters 10 years ago. Definitely so if you include "nascent" forms. More specifically, the electric scooter dates from around 1920 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoped . The Segway PT came out in 2001.

Bikes of course are 19th century technology.

Airbag helmets are new.

Electric cars were popular in the early 1900s.

CMU was working on self-driving cars in the 1980s; the Navlab drove across the US in the 1995, and was autonomous 98% of the time. Surely that counts as "nascent", yes?

Drone taxis sound like the proposed helicopter taxis of the 1950s, or flying cars, or jet packs, though without a driver. Drones have been around for more than 10 year. Passenger-carrying drones? That is indeed new.

"Boring tunnels in multiple levels"; many subway systems have multiple levels. What has been new about that in the last 10 years which wasn't deployed earlier, not even in nascent form?

"Shuttles to Mars". I don't know how to judge that one. In 1989 when Bush Sr. announced the Space Exploration Initiative, would you have said that it was a nascent project? You didn't know that that it wouldn't pan out, just like we don't know now if SpaceX's plans will pan out.

The world 20-40 years ago was far more sophisticated than you seem to think.

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by Eridrus on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @03:59AM (#18805037)
One of the things I don't really see mentioned about scooters is they're less ideal in cold/wet weather. So I'm not sure if the east coast can really capture the benefits as well as California.
Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by masayune on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @09:28AM (#18806321)
I’m from an LA suburb. I’m able to get to Santa Monica/Culver City, LAX, and J-Town just with light rail and a free transfer depending on where I need to go. In terms of time efficiency, it’s comparable to driving (faster than driving/parking in rush hour but not as fast during off hours).

LA metro is dropping track like crazy and way more usable than it used to be. And it’s cheap. $1.75 each way or monthly pass.

Tl;dr it’s awesome now and getting better!

Re:The West Coast is beating the East Coast on transportation? by QML on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @04:03AM (#18805046)
The economies of scale is what will matter: new transportation technologies may appear in a blink, but that doesn’t mean they’ll be mass-affordable.

Personally, I’m fine with any large transit project as long as it goes faster than a car and cheaper as well.