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Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by jacquesm on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @03:18PM (#18802052)
The Chinese would check for 'illegal' pregnancies during the days of the one-child policy. They would use a solid state x-ray emitter as a source of radiation and a passive fluorescent screen, both probably because there was no reliable electrical power available and this is a very cheap to manufacture setup. The dose emitted would be quite high due to the insensitivity of the screen, the degradation over time of the source (requiring a higher than necessary quantity of radioactive material at the start to get a long useful operating life) and the duration, on the order of seconds.

I've tried to find a video of this but alas, no luck. The one I remember seeing was extremely primitive, safety was basically non-existent, both for the woman being screened (and her unborn child, quite possibly to be aborted anyway if detected) and the operator of the device.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by iforgotpassword on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @11:45AM (#18800872)
Boy, people were careless and stupid back then.

I wonder how many things we do today will be seen in a similar way 50 years from now. If you believe everything you read somewhere online, then pretty much anything today is poisonous and will kill us, but just statistically some of these have to be right.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by KineticLensman on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @12:47PM (#18801235)
> If you believe everything you read somewhere online, then pretty much anything today is poisonous

Amongst the tools in our armoury here is 'kill or cure' [0], whose mission is "Help to make sense of the Daily Mail’s ongoing effort to classify every inanimate object into those that cause cancer and those that prevent it"

[0] http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by ken on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:28PM (#18801468)
It's not hard to identify plenty of other cases where we do crazy things. It's just hard to stop doing them when everybody else does them, and expects us to do the same.

"When people moved around by getting in single-passenger human-piloted vehicles powered by burning fossil fuels and venting the exhaust directly into the atmosphere."

That one's pretty easy to identify now because it's far enough along we're at the tipping point where it's no longer crazy to talk about replacements. There's a dozen others you see every day which aren't close to that tipping point, and I'd be called crazy just for mentioning them in this category.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by icefo on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @11:57AM (#18800942)
I'm betting for our carelessness towards endocrine disruptors. The toxic plastics in baby bottles and the non stick frying pans for example
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by gaius on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @12:38PM (#18801194)
The synthetic hormones in The Pill don’t break down either, they are steadily accumulating in the drinking water supply.
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by masklinn on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @12:31PM (#18801143)
Would that not be one of the "careless and stupid back then" which we're starting to wise up to?
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by timcederman on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @05:01PM (#18802665)
There are four I can think of off the top of my head:

1. We're pretty careless with VOCs and other chemicals (e.g. off-gassing new furniture in enclosed environments, or from heated teflon). Folks should open windows more often, plus it's a shame it's not more widely known how easy it is to get exposed to this.

2. There are flame retardant chemicals in just about all soft furniture in the US, which end up as dust particles and end up ingested/inhaled.

3. Phthalates in everything.

4. Glyphosate showing up in large quantities in food, particularly kids' cereal.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by userbinator on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @02:10PM (#18801675)
Back then, people didn't worry too much about risk. They just lived and died.

Which begs the philosophical question, if we continue on the trend of trying to reduce risk and take that to its extreme conclusion, what is really left of life? People do tons of things every day that put them at risk of an early death --- many of them even enjoy it.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by Klathmon on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:35PM (#18802538)
There's a difference between not knowing and knowing but still choosing to do the activity.

I ride a motorcycle, and I am fully aware of the dangers involved. I also know that going the speed limit, wearing a helmet, and not drinking anything will significantly reduce my risk of death, but that it's still more dangerous than driving a car.

At the same time, I know that breathing in sawdust, paint fumes, and many other things is dangerous for me, so I have a mask that I wear when doing work around my house, and I ensure that there is good ventilation. The "cost" of doing those things is small compared to the possible benefits, so I do them. And without the information that those things are dangerous, I would be putting my wellbeing at risk for no good reason.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by c3534l on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @10:42PM (#18804020)
It seems like the technology needs to be new and cause health effects that can blend in with normal mortality rates to avoid detection for some period of time. Radiation, asbestos, smoking - these avoided detection because they're from chronic use and it took a while to see the true side-effects of these things.
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by LambdaComplex on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @11:53AM (#18800915)
Tanning beds.
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by i80and on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @12:16PM (#18801055)
Tanning beds are already generally already accepted as being dangerous
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by CydeWeys on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:22PM (#18802460)
They're still allowed, though. The shoe X-ray machines were banned.

Someone in fifty years could easily say "Can you believe they used to allow stores where you'd pay to go into a pod and purposely be given skin cancer?!"

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by aaaaaaaaaab on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @12:53PM (#18801273)
Eating vast amounts of sugar for one
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by tejtm on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:05PM (#18802354)
electronic devices in the service anything other than the human holding it
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by martin-adams on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:28PM (#18801470)
I do have this feeling that mobile phones will be the cancer causing thing of our generation. For what I understand, the World Health Organization has classified it as ‘possibly carcinogenic’.

Others that I won’t be surprised if it bites us are Nitrates in food, Aspartame, Vaping, red meat, refined carbs.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by IggleSniggle on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @02:21PM (#18801734)
WHO has classified as “possibly carcinogenic,” which means “we don’t know, it’s hard to prove a negative.” Other things that WHO has classified as “possibly carcinogenic” are coffee, power-lines, and talc powder.

In other words, we haven’t proven that there isn’t a risk, and it’s worth doing more research to try and discover if there is a risk because it would be a pretty big deal if there is...but it’s not an easy thing to control for.

I don’t think we’ll have an answer to this during this century, unless it conclusively _does_ cause harm (current studies indicate that it does not).

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by martin-adams on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @05:47PM (#18802895)
I think that is why I put these in the 50 year category before we'll know more confidently either way. Where we don't have a direct way to control the outcome because it's hard to simulate real word effects in a short period of time, we might see more causation effects over a 50 year period.

That said, I'm not saying they are carcinogenic, but I'd rather err on the side of caution. Short answer, I don't hold the phone near my head, I leave it out of my jeans pocket as much as possible, and have it on flight mode at night.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by userbinator on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:03PM (#18802346)
talc powder

Given the recent news about there being small bits of asbestos mixed in, one has to wonder if that was the actual reason for it being on the list.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by userbinator on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @02:19PM (#18801723)
They were designed to look like furniture, not medical objects. One on view at Chicago’s International Museum of Surgical Science has floral cut-outs in its wooden cabinet, giving it the look of an heirloom chest.

A lot of late 19/early 20th century equipment is like that. Wood was a common material and ornate design was simply a way to show off craftsmanship.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by dammitcoetzee on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:47PM (#18801563)
Could we actually do this in a safe way? Having ill fitting shoes can cause a lot of long term damage. There could be a case that it's worth the X-ray risk...
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by opencl on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @02:09PM (#18801668)
Modern xray machines deliver low enough radiation doses that they could probably be used for this reasonably safely. They are routinely used in medical settings after all, but I suspect it would still be a liability nightmare.

But there's no real need to see the bones for fitting shoes. There's plenty of 3D scanning technologies today that do not involve ionizing radiation and would probably be more useful for fitting shoes anyway.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by grahn on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:20PM (#18802450)
Not only are there technologies that could be used for this, there are working products in the market that do it already. I work for one of the technology providers in this area.

Having x-ray images or such would actually be somewhat helpful, as you could much more easily identify the metatarsophalangeal joints (the joint where the toe meets the foot), the locations of which do influence shoe fit to some extent.

However, the cost, safety, usability etc. of using x-ray machines in a retail setting makes it infeasible by a wide margin compared to optical measurement methods, and those generally take you far enough anyway. I'd rather go for dynamic analysis (i.e. scanning the foot while it is in motion taking a step) if more data on the skeletal structure is required.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by ummonk on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @02:35PM (#18801799)
You only need to map the surface. Just use milimeter wave scanners (the kind used by the TSA).
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by CydeWeys on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:20PM (#18802447)
Or basic 3D stereographic techniques or LIDAR. Visible light suffices here; just rotate the camera/laser around the feet and build up the 3D model.

This may be mostly irrelevant though because unless you have problems with your feet you can tell if shoes fit simply by the feel.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by grahn on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:37PM (#18802546)
It's still very relevant for a couple of reasons.

Perhaps most obviously, you just can't try a shoe on if you buy online. You can if you buy five pairs and return four, as some do, but it's a lot of hassle and a waste of resources for all the shipping back and forth.

Secondly, a significant portion of the population (tens of precent) have "problems" enough that most shoes in a store don't fit, meaning you have to try on a lot before you find one that does. And even if you don't have such issues, sizing between brands (and even styles) is so inconsistent that you usually have to try multiple different sizes to decide which one fits you. Having a 3D model paired with an AI system that tells you which shoes fit and what sizes to pick saves a lot of time for a lot of people, both shoppers and staff.

Finally, if you ever want to order custom made footwear, there is really no way around measuring your feet. And arguably the only reliably well-defined and repeatable way of doing that is to do a 3D scan to capture the shape.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by skookumchuck on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @06:24PM (#18803055)
My aunt would knit socks for me as a kid. I'd stand on a sheet of paper and my mom would draw the outline of my foot, and mail her the sheet. Worked great!
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by grahn on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @01:57AM (#18804661)
That method is actually used by many shoemakers when you order a pair of bespoke shoes (in combination with a series of tape measurements). It's not accurate enough to produce a fitting shoe in a single attempt, however, so what usually happens is they make a "test shoe" based the measurements and drawing, then modify the last after having you try that on. This procedure can be repeated more than once if needed.

Knitted socks are quite a lot more forgiving than leather shoes, fortunately, since the material accommodates by stretching when you put it on. I'm not surprised it worked well for you and your aunt!

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by improbable22 on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @12:50PM (#18808224)
Thanks this is interesting. Is part of the problem that people's feet change size with weight?

I have the impression that this is half the battle with finding shoes myself. Probably the bones are the same size left and right, but I think they deform differently as I stand (or walk) in a way that depends on the contours of the shoe... and that sounds like a problem that would be hard to model with laser scanning or whatever.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by grahn on Thursday January 03, 2019 @02:29AM (#18813496)
You're right that the feet deform significantly when you stand on them. For that reason you usually measure them load-bearing (i.e. you stand up with even weight distribution on your feet).

I think it's more likely that it's the deformation of the shoe that is uneven than that the shoe affects the deformation of the foot much. An exception would be if it has a built-up sole with support for the arches, preventing the arches from collapsing.

Either way, it's a complex process that is hard to model, just like you say. The way we're getting around it is by collecting various data on what people end up liking and then infer the properties of the shoe, rather than trying to explicitly model it. So the solution is a combination of 3D scanning and machine learning.

Also worth mentioning, by the way: most people actually have slightly different size and shape on their left vs. right foot. For about 50% of the population the length differs by more than half a US size. Being perfectly symmetrical is the rare case.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by CydeWeys on Wednesday January 02, 2019 @05:28PM (#18810937)
Your feet can swell half a size just through the course of a day!
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by dammitcoetzee on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @03:09PM (#18801987)
That's an interesting thought. Those can see the actual tissue as well.
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by mordechai9000 on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:20PM (#18802449)
I think you could just use photographs to make a 3d model.

As someone with hard to fit feet, I have often wished for custom footwear made with modern materials and design. I envision a system where you go to the store, they create a 3d model, you pick a design, and it is sent off to a factory that has been tooled to efficiently build the footwear from the model.

I think you could charge 150 or even 200% over off-the-shelf versions for modern custom fit running shoes/hiking boots/ski boots, etc. These markets already spend extra money for premium products. I know I would pay it, gladly.

Runners seem to go through shoes like clockwork. You could setup a subscription service.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by ohazi on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:07PM (#18802371)
Or lasers?
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by schoen on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @02:14PM (#18801695)
My understanding is that digital dental x-rays deliver an order of magnitude less radiation dose than traditional film x-rays. So maybe there's a way to do this with an extremely small dose, especially because you might not need to produce super-sharp images.

Randall Munroe's radiation dose chart (https://xkcd.com/radiation/) says that a cross-country flight delivers a higher dose than a typical dental x-ray or even a chest x-ray. Maybe it would already be worth it with really modern imaging equipment.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by kazinator on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:24PM (#18802471)
The thing is, the X ray cannot tell you much about the fit, other than that your bones are roughly fitting into the bounding box. Which you already know from the ability to put the shoe on at all.

The X-ray image can't possibly tell you things like that the shoe's upper is too tight over the metatarsals, or that a seam inside the shoe is rubbing on your pinky toe, which will cause blistering.

At the end of the day, a good shoe fit is a simple matter of feel.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by userbinator on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @02:04PM (#18801643)
Medical X-rays are a thing, but I doubt most people would now accept even more of them --- there's enough public fear of them as it is.
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by toufiqbarhamov on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @02:05PM (#18801651)
Even if the risk were worth it for the person being fitted, it might not be for the techs using it. Remember that this was only affordable at the time because there was zero health and safety. If you take proper precautions and only use trained personnel, it’s going to be cost prohibitive. I think sonagrams and laser scanning would be the better choice, safer, and cheaper.
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by CydeWeys on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:21PM (#18802455)
Medical/dental techs leave the room when they're taking these X-rays for precisely this reason. You could have a separate room in a shoe store just for the X-rays ... but realistically I can't see that happening. How many people would even go for this? I sure as hell wouldn't want X-rays taken in a shoe store.
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by dsego on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:05PM (#18801340)
I have problems ordering shoes online and getting the fit right. Depending on brand and type of shoe, I can be anywhere between 44 and 46. And then the US and EU size and cm don't match up, my Onitsuka are 11-45-28.5 and fit exactly the same as Chucks, which are 11-44.5-29. But cycling shoes are the worst, and I have to buy those online, because local bike shops don't offer a huge choice. Had to return a pair of Giro two times, first size 45, then 45.5 and 46 was the one that fit. We need more standardized sizing, but how to get all manufacturers on board? And how about a 3D foot scanner and online filters which pick the correct size based on your 3d foot model?
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @02:16PM (#18801704)
Phones with depth sensors could be helpful here. It’s actually possible to do photogrammetry with just the camera, but the depth sensors make it easier and more reliable.

What I’d really like though is a machine that can construct a good shoe specifically for your foot in a reasonable amount of time. Even if it took a week, I might be willing to wait for that for custom fit shoes (as I do for new glasses for example).

Generally I could build this machine and would really like to, but I haven’t found a good idea on materials. If you could make them from recycled bottles and natural fibers it would be interesting too. Or maybe a totally woven shoe? Does anyone have any YouTube links or similar on unique ways to make shoes that could be done in a machine of some limited cost and complexity?

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by grahn on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @03:23PM (#18802090)
Technologies for mass scale customisation is being developed by several big players in the market. However, also consider that there are already hundreds of thousands of different shoe styles in the market, so finding a pair of perfectly fitting shoes can to a large degree be considered a search problem rather than a customisation problem. With appropriate 3D scanning technology, this can be done today.

Disclosure: I work for a technology provider in this field.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by TaylorAlexander on Friday January 04, 2019 @02:29AM (#18822548)
Lately I’ve been thinking about the connection between markets and “othering”. I’m wondering if distributed manufacturing can help, and interested in DIY “micro factories” that can be made in a small shop using 3D printers and basic hand tools.

So it’s a different approach. Basically I’m starting to make better and better robots with my 3D printers and I want to make open source factories with the tech. :)

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by martin-adams on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @01:21PM (#18801421)
Sounds like we should have a standard set of feet moulds that manufacturers can rate against. A bit like how you can have a measure of a Kilo based on an agreed original. Consumers only then need to match the best mould version.
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by ummonk on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @03:16PM (#18802037)
Is there no service that uses automation to make custom-fitted shoes yet? This seemed like such an obvious thing to me several years ago when 3d printing and the like started becoming a fad, and I figured there would be a startup that did it (or one of the big companies would work on it). But if anyone is doing it, I as a consumer haven't noticed yet. What gives?

I can't see cost being an issue - when you look at how shoe construction works, it should be straightforward to tweak the shoe shape for each shoe without significant increase in manufacturing cost.

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by grahn on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @03:36PM (#18802181)
Several well-known brands are working on this in various ways. Adidas has a cooperation with Carbon 3D to produce individualised soles for shoes you order, as one example[1]. Robotic knitting is another area I know some players are working on, for making custom uppers. You'll likely see offerings for customised footwear based on these technologies appear on the market in the next couple of years.

I'd expect it to take a number of years before the manufacturing processes have matured and evolved enough to get the price points down to the level that most people would consider an option when buying footwear, though.

[1] https://www.carbon3d.com/stories/adidas/

Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by ggm on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:18PM (#18802440)
Was in my local shoeshop in the sixties. Have used. Was removed pretty soon after I used it.
Re:When Shoes Were Fit with X-Rays by dmitrybrant on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @04:30PM (#18802502)
A name like "Pedoscope Company" would certainly raise a few eyebrows today!