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Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by stpasta on Saturday December 29, 2018 @08:57AM (#18783554)
I don't think the point here is that rationality is bad. The point is that the speaker should have acknowleged that there is something to be gained from thinkers who aren't old white men in the broadly-speaking European tradition.
Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by krapp on Saturday December 29, 2018 @10:18AM (#18783936)
>The point is that the speaker should have acknowleged that there is something to be gained from thinkers who aren't old white men in the broadly-speaking European tradition.

Why is the race, age, gender or ethnicity of the thinker relevant to the credibility of their ideas?

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by chobeat on Saturday December 29, 2018 @10:32AM (#18784002)
Because ideas are not pure and unbiased. Every single event in your life contributes to your biases, to the way you conduct science, to the way make statements and the content of these statements.

Race, gender and class in this case are clearly connected because he embodies all the stereotypes of the white male STEMlord. It makes sense, he summarized readings from others like him to appeal to a crowd of people like him. The crowd is becoming aware of this echo-chamber/safe-space for engineer and questions his motives, because they have been fed the same ideas over and over and he doesn't challenge them but just reinforces them.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by leereeves on Saturday December 29, 2018 @10:47AM (#18784078)
A photon doesn't care what race or gender you are. Neither does a computer. Mathematics developed in India or China or Africa works just as well in Europe, and vice versa.

You're absolutely right: our thoughts and ideas are biased and impure. That's why it's so important to test them with science and reason.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by chobeat on Saturday December 29, 2018 @11:27AM (#18784282)
Mathematics and physics are fields where reason works pretty well (in most cases). Nobody would argue against that. But they are the exception, not the rule.

Also for example, mathematics and physics are usually fields that rarely have direct applications and most of the time they provide tools for other fields. What if the physics and maths we have now, or the way we frame the problems these fields should solve, are biased? What if this bias is preventing the creation of useful tools for other fields?

The problem is that we must acknowledge the impossibility to "think outside of the box" of reason. By doing so we open ourselves to a wider spectrum of possible discoveries and constructions, even within science and engineering. What exists might not be biased in itself, but the fact that we reached some results instead of others is dependant on cultural biases that exist outside the field itself and inside the individuals and organizations pursuing science and engineering.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by leereeves on Saturday December 29, 2018 @11:31AM (#18784303)
Who's forbidding anyone to "think outside the box of reason"?

It's rather the opposite here; some are trying to forbid reason to stray outside the box they believe it belongs in. The possibility that reason might explain mental processes appears to be so threatening that many people are attacking this video for daring to try.

And not with any specific objection, but simply with attacks on reason itself.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by chobeat on Saturday December 29, 2018 @11:44AM (#18784375)
This video isn't trying anything new. These are ideas that we've seen already, just presented in a way that is palatable to engineers.

Reason itself can understand its limits. That's a good thing, we are lucky and we got to that poitn.

> It's rather the opposite here; some are trying to forbid reason to stray outside the box they believe it belongs in.

Nobody is forbidding anything, as long as you don't make it dangerous. Excesses of reason led to great crimes in the last centuries but this is not the case.

> The possibility that reason might explain mental processes appears to be so threatening that many people are attacking this video for daring to try.

Reason can explain mental processes for sure: it's called neuroscience and it's a thriving field. But consciousness or intelligence are not only about mental processes. I mean, you can believe so but then we say your opinions are naive, because there's plenty of evidence that mechanicism is not enough to explain human experience. We are not attacking this video, we are criticizing it for making the same mistakes of so many reductionists before him. If the attacks seem vague is because probably you're missing the whole discourse going on in the last 20 years in the Philosophy of Mind and related fields.

Also reason is not sacred, get over it.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by leereeves on Saturday December 29, 2018 @11:48AM (#18784393)
If there are compelling arguments from "the whole discourse going on in the last 20 years in the Philosophy of Mind and related fields" then please introduce those arguments.

"You can believe [something] but then we say your opinions are naive" is not actually an argument, nor is it productive discussion.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by chobeat on Saturday December 29, 2018 @11:58AM (#18784451)
Here you go:

https://books.google.it/books?id=r0Bf3lLys6AC&printsec=front...

https://books.google.it/books?id=OVGna4ZEpWwC&printsec=front...

These are just a couple of modern books with an anti-reductionist approach.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by chr1 on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:53PM (#18784777)
The problem with anti-reductionist approach is that it doesn't explain anything and doesn't predict anything.

It simply says "i was wrong about all those other things, but this next thing you can't explain in principle, because reasons (many books of untestable claims here)".

Even if we assume that consciousness or intelligence cannot be explained by physics, the anti-reductionist position still doesn't add anything because we need to try to explain it with physics anyway to find out that it is not possible.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by friendlybus on Saturday December 29, 2018 @02:06PM (#18785156)
It adds the ability to survive in an environment where all the perceived facts are against you, like a desert. Physics in theory might save you from a water-less desert, but you won't be able to access that as a useful solution in the stranded-survivor situation.
Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by chr1 on Tuesday January 01, 2019 @03:48PM (#18802259)
How exactly philosophy is going to save anyone in a desert?
Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by leereeves on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:05PM (#18784493)
So no particular argument stands out as relevant and compelling?

I can tell you I'll never read those books. Philosophy is a field that's never contributed anything useful and never actually reached a conclusion on anything.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by dang on Saturday December 29, 2018 @01:50PM (#18785072)
Would you please stop? On the internet, the more grandiose a statement, the more empty it is, and posting like that in a flamewar is damaging this site for what it can actually be good at.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by chobeat on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:09PM (#18784526)
can you acknowledge that "maybe" it's just that you cannot understand the whole thing? You know, many scientists engaged in philosophy (as if science is not a branch of philosophy, lol), as well as many artists, politicians, economists and most of the most brilliant minds every produced by the humankind. Why do you think they are wrong in that endeavour and you're right?
Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by leereeves on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:25PM (#18784615)
I have no trouble understanding philosophy, it's not at all deep or challenging compared to advanced mathematics or physics. It's just unproductive. Ask five philosophers for an answer and you'll get ten opinions.
Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by chobeat on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:35PM (#18784674)
what? Philosophy is not about giving answers. It's about many things, but it stopped being about giving answers a long time ago. It's about creating realities, it's about destructuring other people's answers. It's about asking questions. It's about understanding why all the answers are partial. But philosophy is a never ending endeavour, like science. They don't deal in absolutes, they deal in "this is good enough for now but that's not the truth".
Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by leereeves on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:37PM (#18784685)
Precisely what I'm saying. Philosophy isn't even about looking for answers. You're right that science and philosophy were once united, but philosophy abandoned evidence-based inquiry long ago and left the search for real answers to science.

Perhaps one day we'll really understand intelligence and consciousness. Perhaps not. But if we do, I'm confident the answers will come from neuroscience, psychology, and/or AI, rather than philosophy.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by chobeat on Saturday December 29, 2018 @12:50PM (#18784751)
> Some time ago science diverged from philosophy

Without epistemology there's no science. Period. Science needs philosophy because they have two complementing roles. If philosophy (or non-scientific thinking in general) doesn't define concepts, science has nothing to work with. Science's role is not to make up concepts. Sometimes a single person does that during scientific inquiry but he's stepping outside of science's responsability and ill-defined concepts created so many complications throughout science's history. Just think about psychiatry.

> and philosophy abandoned evidence-based inquiry.

Big citation needed.

> Perhaps one day we'll really understand intelligence and consciousness. Perhaps not. But if we do, I'm confident the answers will come from neuroscience, psychology, and/or AI, rather than philosophy.

That's not the point. For sure the scientific understanding of intelligence and consciousness will come from science. The role of philosophy is different: it's to define what's the intelligence your trying to make sense of, it's trying to frame the problem you want to solve with science, it's about pointing science towards the evidence you want to model and let it do its course because now the exchange is always been: "Go science, fetch there" and science replied "there's nothing there, but I've found neurons". "Oh nice, let's try there", "Still nothing, but I've found networks in the brain and processing in the visual cortex and the rest of the body", "Umh, weird. Maybe it's an emergent property". "Try there" and so on. Neuroscientists are heavily involved in philosophy in the first place because this back and forth is much more intense than in other fields and there's evidently something wrong in how the problem is framed.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by leereeves on Saturday December 29, 2018 @01:04PM (#18784818)
> If philosophy (or non-scientific thinking in general) doesn't define concepts, science has nothing to work with.

That's certainly not true. Physical concepts were invented by the physicists. Viruses, bacteria, prions, etc were discovered by biologists. Algorithms were invented by computer scientists and mathematicians. Philosophers had very little if anything to do with it.

> philosophy abandoned evidence-based inquiry

If I'm wrong about this you can easily prove it. Just point me to the evidence-based philosophy.

> the exchange is always been: "Go science, fetch there"

No philosopher pointed the way for Einstein or Planck or Euler. You could claim that they were practicing a non-scientific mode of thought but it was based on a scientific, not philosophical, education, and personally I think that's a very narrow, mechanical view of science.

I don't mean to completely dismiss your chosen field. There might be value in it that I'm not seeing, and even if it's merely interesting but unproductive there's still value in that.

I just mean to say two things: 1) it's not for me, and 2) when it intersects with other fields philosophers need to contribute something more specific/productive than "you should read these philosophy books". Practitioners of different fields collaborate by sharing relevant information, not by expecting people in other fields to learn their field.

Re:The Ghost in the Machine: An AI Perspective on the Soul [... by stpasta on Saturday December 29, 2018 @11:44AM (#18784377)
I assume that a person's background contributes to their ideas in some way (cf. Whorf/Sapir), hopefully not to their credibility. I'll let someone else come up something here.

I am most interested in the fact that he said that his theory could not be improved by drawing on thinkers from other cultures. Why? Because his theory itself implies that other cultures have things to contribute.

As he said, cultures have more intelligence (i.e. better theory creation powers) than individuals. One would guess, then, that he would say a good theory should maximize the number of cultures it draws from and the degree to which it draws from them.

However his theory is at best the product of one culture or at worst (and I think this is what he implied in his question and answer response) the product of one individual.