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Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by sargun on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @08:56PM (#18766632)
Can you point us to a better article?
Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by trevyn on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @09:36PM (#18766811)
Here’s the actual safety board report, including flight data recorder graphs: http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/pre/2018/20...

Looks like there was a problem with the autopilot trim, likely due to a faulty sensor, and the pilot just needed to switch off the autopilot instead of fighting it — the previous flight of that aircraft experienced a similar issue, and they just turned the autopilot trim off and carried on normally. :(

The graphs on PDF page 23 are particularly morbid, and you’ll note that two of the final auto nose-down commands are of longer duration than all the rest.

Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by trevyn on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @10:05PM (#18766923)
Ah, this is quite good as well: https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/14/boeings-automatic-trim-for...

Apparently it wasn’t the standard autopilot trim, but a special safety program specific to the 737 MAX. Which still is just a switch to disable, if you know that switch is there, or that there is a checklist for dealing with runaway trim, or that you’re aware that auto-trim commands are the reason your plane keeps nosing down...

Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by caf on Thursday December 27, 2018 @12:22AM (#18767539)
I think the most important point described in that article is that the MCAS trim, unlike the other kinds of elevator trim, isn't defeated by limit switches on the yoke - and that this critical information was not in the training or flight manual.
Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by dotancohen on Thursday December 27, 2018 @08:22AM (#18769265)
If true, then this right here is the problem root. Why isn't pilot limit respected with regard for the MCAS specifically? Are any other systems so independent?

I remember years ago the Boeing folks claiming that the automated Airbuses would be dangerous because the pilot always knows best. So how did it come to this on a Boeing?

Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by caf on Thursday December 27, 2018 @09:41AM (#18769657)
The answer appears to be something along the lines of "because the whole point of MCAS is to stop the pilot flying the aircraft beyond the limits of stability".
Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by Stratoscope on Thursday December 27, 2018 @01:11AM (#18767746)
> The graphs on PDF page 23

Just a note for anyone looking for these, I think this is a reference to the graphs on the PDF page labeled as Page 14. (The PDF has several pages before Page 1.)

Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by StreamBright on Thursday December 27, 2018 @03:24AM (#18768268)
If the autopilot tries to screw things up it is standard procedure to turn it off. Is failing to do so is human error? I guess so.
Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by askmike on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:35AM (#18768529)
This wasn't the default autopilot but a new system, as such they didn't know what was causing the behaviour. On top of that all their sensors gave them different information.

> If the autopilot tries to screw things up it is standard procedure to turn it off. Is failing to do so is human error? I guess so.

You have a new automatic system pilots are not told about that will deep dive a plane with 200 people into the ocean unless you do things you have learned to apply in a different situation. I don't think you can call that a human error.. Except for maybe the human that decided not to tell the pilots?

Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by StreamBright on Thursday December 27, 2018 @07:04AM (#18768998)
And in the previous flight a similar team could handle it?
Re:How the pilots of Lion Air Flight 610 lost control by LeoPanthera on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @09:03PM (#18766675)
The Wikipedia article is quite good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_610