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Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by dkersten on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:09PM (#18764914)
Theres a fine line between “being allowed to throw a loud ranting racist out of a pub” because the pub is your business and you should be allowed to choose who to do business with and you don’t like racists... and throwing out a person of a different race because it’s your business and you should be allowed to choose who to do business with and don’t like that race...

That is, we want businesses to have the right to choose who to do business with, unless we disagree with their reasons for not wanting to do business with someone.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by mrkurt on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:16PM (#18764989)
It's not really a fine line. There are specific, protected people-features you can't use to discriminate. Saying stupid shit isn't one of them. Race is.

Those laws don't exist because we don't agree with their reasons. They exist to protect people who have been categorically repressed for hundreds of years.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by sharpneli on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:29PM (#18765085)
This brings an interesting workaround to mind.

What if they register their ideology as a religion? Iirc it is a protected class in US so they cannot be banned due to it.

However people getting banned like this rarely are inventive enough to figure out ways to fight back.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by krapp on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:08PM (#18765345)
>What if they register their ideology as a religion? Iirc it is a protected class in US so they cannot be banned due to it.

The thing about the law is that it doesn't operate like code. You can't just cast<Religion>(ideology) and expect it to work within the framework of law, because the law is (luckily) interpreted by people who expect it to be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous.

Otherwise, literally every corporation would already have registered themselves as a religion just to avoid paying taxes.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by creaghpatr on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:29PM (#18765468)
What if a law is passed to make political affiliation a protected class?
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by krapp on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:39PM (#18765523)
IANAL, but as I understand it, the typical qualifiers for being a protected class tend to be immutable (sex, race, age, disability, color, creed, national origin, religion, or genetic information, per Wikipedia[0].) Obviously you can change your sex and religion, though, and disability status in some cases, though.

Maybe a case could be made for political affiliation under "creed," since there appears to be no specific legal definition for that[1], although the consensus seems to be centered around religious belief.

In any case, since one can (and many people do) change their political affiliations often, I would expect such a law to meet with some extreme legal challenges at the very least, because it seems like such an obvious attempt to game the system, particularly since "discrimination against a political group" is pretty much the purpose of other political groups.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group

[1]https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/8686/what-is-a-creed...

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by darkpuma on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:49PM (#18765579)
People can and do change their religion. I am proof of that.
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by krapp on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:58PM (#18765611)
True. I have to admit I'm having a hard time coming up with rationales that include religion and whatever "creed" is that would exclude political affiliation as well.

I personally think there's something fundamentally undemocratic about barring discrimination against political ideology because that comes too close to interfering with freedom of speech or freedom of association or the exercise of politics itself.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by tnolet on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:36PM (#18765154)
This is the opposite of a fine line. One is something you are born with/into. The other is a conscious choice.
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by dkersten on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:29PM (#18765087)
What about refusing someone because they voted for the other guy in the last election?
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by johnny22 on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:10PM (#18765362)
"Right to refuse service to anyone" is a sign that was common once.
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by zamalek on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:31PM (#18765112)
> who to do business with and don’t like that race...

Although not the historical reason, a far simpler one is: you can change your mind and ideas but can't change your race.

In addition, it is that behavior and not that belief that gets the racist removed from the premises. You can choose to be quiet about your ideas where they are not welcome, but you can't choose to not be your race where it is not welcome.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by humanrebar on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:16PM (#18765394)
> ...you can change your mind and ideas but can't change your race

So we can ban people for/against atheism because it's an idea one could theoretically change their minds on?

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by voidpointercast on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @07:49PM (#18766257)
I mean you could make the legitimate argument that Atheism is a religion in itself. That said, your example is lacking and ill-defined in legalese.
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by Intermernet on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @08:51PM (#18766600)
You can therefore make the argument that not believing in moon goats is a religion, and therefore everyone follows an almost infinite number of religions through their acts of disbelief.

Atheism is literally the opposite of religion.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by Consultant32452 on Thursday December 27, 2018 @03:49AM (#18768348)
In the specific case in question the naughty language occurred off platform. So the "racist" in this analogy did keep their mouth quiet in your pub. But you still kicked them out.

Did you know that the incident in question is about this Sargon fellow attacking white nationalists? So to further kill the analogy, you kicked a fellow out of your pub for saying mean things things against racism while at another pub.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by creaghpatr on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:08PM (#18765343)
So if being black was a choice you would be okay with businesses discriminating against black people unless they chose to be a different race?
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by krapp on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:48PM (#18765575)
In this hypothetical universe, is it as easy to change one's race as it is to change one's clothes? If so, it seems no different than "no shirt, no shoes, no service."

But then a world in which race was a choice would be so different from our own that one would wonder whether racial discrimination would even exist, or what "black" would even mean.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by y2kenny on Thursday December 27, 2018 @12:10AM (#18767490)
If I understand the arguments some folks are putting out these days, race, like gender, is now a social construct and therefore entirely mutable: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-i...

I am not saying I agree or disagree with it, but perhaps things are not as hypothetical as you believe.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by dkersten on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:59PM (#18765290)
Yes, this makes sense.
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by nine_k on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:18PM (#18765006)
Yes, a society* enforces certain choices, but not every choice. "Everything what is not expressly forbidden is allowed" still applies.

* Yes, "society" here works through state. But without a reasonably wide consensus in the society, a norm cannot be effectively imposed: most people would break it and be sure that everyone around won't mind. (Manufacturing such a consent, if it's not yet there, is another business.)

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by jyounker on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @06:44PM (#18765903)
There isn’t a fine line. One is based on a person’s beliefs. The other is based on a person’s genetics.
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by CyberDildonics on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:29PM (#18765083)
This is not a fine line. One is behavior and the other is physical attribute which can not be changed and does not affect anyone else.