News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by Robotbeat on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @01:03AM (#18756196)
Arrivo weren't really a vacuum system, at least for the last year or so.

But the thing is that electrified rail networks doesn't address the quadratically increasing losses from drag at high speeds. There's a reason you don't see railroads operating at airline speeds: drag at sea level is a killer. In fact, at high enough speeds, the energy of air travel is actually LOWER than that of a sea level train.\

Altitude gives you a lot of efficiency. The idea of the vacuum train is to bring that efficiency down to sea level. And I think it's a good idea, but a real engineering challenge. In principle, you can keep a vacuum pretty easily. Vacuum tubes remain sealed and evacuated for decades without energy consumption, for instance.

It's just at the interfaces you have to worry about leakage, and there it's a matter of careful sealing. It's possible to get really good at it. The International Space Station is full of interfaces (and thermal cycling every 90 minutes) and would quickly run out of air if we didn't know how to maintain a vacuum well at interfaces.

Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by mpweiher on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @05:02AM (#18756792)
> drag at sea level is a killer.

Yes. Apparently when jet turbines came along they were discounted as ever being useful for commercial/passenger airplanes because they were so incredibly inefficient. I mean, really incredibly inefficient.

What they didn't take into account is that the turbines allow you to fly at much, much higher altitudes. The reduced drag there more than makes up for the lower efficiency. And gets you a smoother ride and higher speeds as well.

Modern turbofan engines are much more efficient, but that's basically because they really are turbo-props with enclosed propellers, though we call them "high bypass turbofans".

And of course if jets have to drop to a lower altitude, for example because their cabin has become depressurised, range is drastically reduced.

Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by pfdietz on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @02:16PM (#18758791)
They're turboprops, but they're turboprops that don't have the speed limit imposed by the need to keep propeller blade tips from exceeding the speed of sound.
Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by macspoofing on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @08:17AM (#18757285)
>In principle, you can keep a vacuum pretty easily.

Keeping a vacuum over a length of hundreds of km is pretty hard, and in fact, has never been done.

Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by rblatz on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @09:57AM (#18757624)
But it has been done at a length of 26.7km, for the LHC.
Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by Retric on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @11:02AM (#18757852)
We also maintain very high pressure pipelines over even longer distances. So, that part is really not a huge leap.

High vacuum like the LHC would be hard, but that’s vast overkill. Even the equivalent of just 100,000 feet would be enough for super sonic trains.

Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by IshKebab on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @03:35PM (#18759100)
Depends on the train-to-tunnel area ratio surely? If it's a close fit like the London underground you'll get a lot more drag on a train at 100k feet than you would on a plan at 100k feet.
Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by Retric on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @04:17PM (#18759257)
You would need some clearance but not that much.

Commercial aircraft fly at ~30,000 feet which is ~30% atm vs ~1% atm at 100,000 feet. That’s edge of space territory, but sill a long way from LHC style vacuums.

https://www.avs.org/AVS/files/c7/c7edaedb-95b2-438f-adfb-36d...

PS: In terms of force it makes little difference as you go to ever lower fractions, but it’s much harder to maintain and pump down the pressure as you keep going lower.

Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by Robotbeat on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @08:47PM (#18759993)
I think they were referring to the fact the air has to move out of the way, and in a tunnel there's less space for the air to move to, thus the drag is higher especially if the cross section of the vehicle is near the cross section of the tunnel.
Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by Retric on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:30AM (#18761532)
It’s something to consider, but you need actual numbers to do so. Are we taking 1/3 Atmospheric pressure and 3 inches of clearance vs 1/300th atmospheric pressure and 3 feet of clearance.

Really, nobody is going to build a system where this is a significant issue past the design stage. So, IMO it’s a consideration but a non issue.

Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by solarkraft on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @11:24AM (#18757919)
You're making a good point, but: What's the effect of leakage in both systems? And don't you need a bit larger pipes for a hyperloop? Other than that I do think the tech is applicable.
Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by Retric on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @04:40PM (#18759322)
It’s mostly a question of cost. High pressure systems are only economic if they transport far more material than they leak, but some minor leaks are fairly trivial. If you talking coarse aka 7,600 micron aka 7.6 torr aka 1% atmospheric pressure you gain most of the value moving a train through an evacuated tube while still being able to use cheap and very fast pump systems to deal is lots of slow leaks. Making that kind of a vaccum tube even easier to maintain.

The LHC however deals with high vacuume becase they need particles to travel hundreds of miles without encountering any atmospheric particles. That would let trains reach orbital velocity without issue, but would be horrifically expensive.

Basicly 100% to 1% vacuume is considered rough/coarse and it cheap. 1% to 1 micron is the middle ground which is increasingly difficult but still not that bad. Under 1 micron aka High vacuume is expensive and mostly the realm of science experiments.

https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/TechZone/Vacuum/Art...

Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by baltbalt on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @03:30PM (#18759080)
According to the cern website it is actually 50km but on a much smaller pipe. The total volume 15000 cubic meter. For a 11 feet wide tunnel it would be about 1.7 km long.
Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by rblatz on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @09:52AM (#18762392)
So the tunnel the LHC is in has a circumference of 26.7 km. But the LHC has two parallel beam lines running in opposite directions. I assume that’s where the discrepancy between our numbers came from. But both beam lines are in the same vacuum vessel.
Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by netcan on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @05:42AM (#18756894)
Key point: at high speed.

If want to go 1000km in 3-4 hrs then you are the kind of problem hyperloop might solve.

Re:Hyperloop startup Arrivo is shutting down as workers are ... by pedrosorio on Tuesday December 25, 2018 @06:12AM (#18756983)