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Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by diminoten on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @10:39AM (#18707233)
It hasn't lost meaning with me, when I read "alt-right" I read "racist trolls".

If you're saying it doesn't apply here, that's possibly fair, but one incorrect application doesn't wipe out the term.

And to echo the point in my sibling comment, these new sites that emphasize free speech (definitely a good cause) tend to immediately face the question of, "how free is speech, really?"

I honestly don't know if Reddit or Twitter, if started today, would have survived the onslaught. I don't know if anyone's figured out what to do that feels both "adhering to free speech concepts" as well as not becoming the next alt-right forum.

Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by sparkie on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @11:28AM (#18707827)
Your delusion is that you associate everyone on these platforms with the alt-right because some of them are alt-right. The reason alt-right flock to those platforms is because they are de-platformed elsewhere. This does not make the non alt-right people on those platforms suddenly become alt-right.

And the reason "alt-right" and "racist troll" mean nothing is because they are used so liberally where they do not apply, and a few minutes of investigation would conclude that they do not apply. Consistent incorrect usage of language applied to something that it is not makes them lose their meaning.

A solution to the "adhering to free speech" would be to allow free speech on platforms, and make it clear what is or isn't allowed on the platform, instead of using vague terms like "hate speech", which could be literally anything that some person finds undesirable.

Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by diminoten on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @11:57AM (#18708109)
It's not a delusion, it's the association that kills new startups.

You can rail against suppression of speech all you want, a company whose loudest and most active users are white supremacists either has to lean-in to that culture, remove it from the site entirely, or hide it. The first option is moral bankruptcy, the second option is an uncomfortable practicality on the limits of free speech, and the third option makes your new site look dead from the outside.

You act like this is a simple problem to solve, but it's far from simple, and getting it even slightly wrong means startup death, period.

Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by sparkie on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @12:11PM (#18708261)
What kills startups is a cartel of payment processors colluding to limit competition. A free market would allow users to make their own decisions about what platforms they wish to use. The entrenched players simply do not want to allow competition, and moreso, they want to involve regulators so that they become in effect "utility providers," which will cement their market positions, otherwise under threat due to their failure to continue innovating.

In a free market, the majority of people would not entertain far-right or far-left forums and would congregate on the services which are providing engaging and meaningful content.

This is the case for say, Youtube right now, but if they have an asymmetric approach to censorship (failing to ban far left ideologues), then they'll end up a far-left cesspit that people will leave in droves.

Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by diminoten on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @12:22PM (#18708392)
You make a lot of comments about the "far-left", I'm guessing this is personal for you.
Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by sparkie on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @12:32PM (#18708510)
The far-left has been getting more extreme over the last few years, probably largely due to "trump derangement syndrome".

I care very deeply about fundamental human rights such as free speech. Many people do not seem to understand what free speech is.

I also care about due process and putting people before a jury of their peers. The witch hunting needs to stop.

I'd consider myself moderate right. I used to lean to the left, but there is no way I can associate myself with what the left has become.

Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by diminoten on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @12:34PM (#18708529)
I guess my point in all this is that it's hard to mesh practicality (not having your startup fail) with ideology (not suppressing people's human right to free speech).

I'm with you on free speech, but I also don't know what I'd do if I were in Twitter/Reddit's shoes, because I don't think "do nothing and let the hatred continue" is viable (both from a business and kindness perspective), but I also don't think suppressing it is morally justified.

Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by sparkie on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @12:49PM (#18708683)
Most of the hate is coming from the left, but this is "acceptable hate" if is directed at white/straight/christian/men, or other bogeyman they can come up with to justify their eternal victimhood.

The divisions are only getting wider, and it is helpful to neither side. When people say racism is on the rise, they couldn't be more correct. White-racism is on the rise, and tolerated. The increase in white supremacists I see as largely a reaction to this. I'm not a selective racist and I despise racism in all of its forms.

Sexism too. Sexism against men is also very real, especially in tech. A diversity quota is a sexism quota. A person's gender should not factor into a hiring decision at all.

Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by diminoten on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @01:02PM (#18708811)
I think you're stark raving mad if you believe the left is responsible for the hatred going on in the world right now, but it's honestly not important where it's coming from so much as the fact that it's very hard to start a new social media website right now, because you're immediately hit with questions about where you stand on free speech, in a way that Reddit and Twitter (and others) never had to deal with.

Every new social media company is basically planting their flag very far in one direction or another (either blocking hate speech or leaning in entirely).

Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by sparkie on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @01:20PM (#18709019)
The left are creating divisions that don't exist anymore. That were solved decades ago. It has gone from "equality for all" to "more equality to those who didn't have the same equality in the past." It is complete lunacy.

The best thing for people to do is reject both this idiocy, and the idiocy of the far-right which wants to revert things back to the old way. This is what the people in the IDW are aiming to achieve - to bring people back to having discourse rather than bickering and widening the polarisation.

We have racists and sexists on both the left and right. We need to denounce racism and sexism in all of their forms, else the problem is only going to increase

Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by diminoten on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @12:15PM (#18708310)
What kills startups is a flock of alt-right users who scare away people not like them (the xenophobia is definitional to "alt-right"), so if you let them stay and don't hide them, you immediately cap your growth substantially. If you let them stay and do somehow hide them, you're hiding your growth which also kills you.

A free market would (and does) kill a startup that allows such toxic members of any affiliation, regardless of what payment processors decide to do.

Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by pdkl95 on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @11:35AM (#18707899)
> It hasn't lost meaning with me, when I read "alt-right" I read "racist trolls"

It's stronger than simply "trolls". "Alt-right" is just the latest PR rebranding used by neo-nazis/white-supremacists. Obviously, generalizations about any group of people is problematic; trolls and other not-explicitly-neo-nazi people use the label "alt-right".. Those people might want to consider that if you hang out with neo-nazis and repeat their memes/trolls, people might start to assume you are a neo-nazi. If someone likes to spend time in hang out with ${sport} fans, uses slang associated with ${sport_team}, most people are going to assume they are fan of that sport even if they claim* otherwise.

I suspect a lot of people might think I'm misinformed because someone in the "alt-right" said they were not nazis, and would never support racial violence. Remember that neo-nazis lie. Is your opinion abased on their public PR-focused interviews? If you have any doubt whatsoever that these are neo-nazis dreaming of bringing back the holocaust, I suggest watching this[1] video at 41:12, which is footage from a popular "alt-right" discord stream inside the Charllottesville rally. In their own words:

    Speaker: Did Hitler do anything wrong?
    Audience: [loud "no"]
    Speaker: One more, I want everybody to repeat after me..,
             ,,,this is the first precept of the true alt-right:
             Gas the [slur]s, race war now!
    Audience: [even louder cheering]
[1] https://youtu.be/zcoYKuoiUrY?t=2472
Re:Top Patreon creators launching an alternate crowdfunding ... by mpweiher on Tuesday December 18, 2018 @12:33PM (#18708520)
I think you misunderstand the problem. It's not that there are actual Nazis in the alt-right or how horrible they are. It's that people like Peterson, (gasp) Harris and Weinstein get labeled with that term.