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Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by pjc50 on Friday December 14, 2018 @07:50AM (#18680438)
There's going to be a lot of money thrown at propaganda to convince voters that requiring employers to treat employees fairly will reduce jobs. And as soon as anyone mentions unions, it's all over. Every (right-of-centre) American knows that they're the only hardworking person in the country and the entire rest of the workforce is lazy good-for-nothings who need the constant threat of firing to achieve anything. /s
Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by svantana on Friday December 14, 2018 @08:12AM (#18680549)
> as soon as anyone mentions unions, it's all over

Isn't there a technical solution to this? Something like an outwardly anonymous social network with "proof" of employment from LinkedIn, where you can pledge to unionize once participation reaches critical mass for your workplace. Yes laws are better, but this could be a decent workaround.

Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by pjc50 on Friday December 14, 2018 @08:20AM (#18680588)
Too easy to infiltrate, too difficult to enforce participation internally. And you've got to advertise it somehow to the workforce.

I don't think it's achievable without outside help and political organisation.

Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by TomMarius on Friday December 14, 2018 @08:27AM (#18680618)
What is not achievable? We're talking about collective bargaining, how is that not achievable without outside help and involving the government? People got it working just fine 100 years ago... Of course back then laws were not favoring corporations that much (in my country where it worked then, not the USA).
Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by pjc50 on Friday December 14, 2018 @08:32AM (#18680645)
Getting collective bargaining started requires assembling the collective - this is a lot harder to do if the employer can just fire anyone seen organising.

Traditionally bootstrapping into a situation where union organising could happen safely and peacefully required a period of violence on the picket lines. There used to be quite a lot of this in America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th...

These days it's even harder in some ways; the more "virtual" an organisation is, the easier it is for the company to just disband and restart it and the harder it is to picket. It's not clear if the various strikes against Uber by its workers have achieved anything.

(someone is downvoting you, but it's not me!)

Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by TomMarius on Friday December 14, 2018 @08:25AM (#18680608)
Why would laws be better? I absolutely don't see how any law could be better than something the people did themselves. Comparable - maybe, but a law is usually way more expensive in the long run and not exactly flexible - and if you were from eastern European state you would know how unions work here (they mostly don't).
Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by pjc50 on Friday December 14, 2018 @08:29AM (#18680628)
Generally in order for unions to exist at all they need a certain amount of protection from reprisals; union organising needs to be a protected activity.

Surely the big Eastern European union success story was Solidarity? Although I can understand how unions would struggle to operate in the post-communist era.

Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by TomMarius on Friday December 14, 2018 @10:05AM (#18681247)
> Generally in order for unions to exist at all they need a certain amount of protection from reprisals; union organising needs to be a protected activity.

Could you please explain why, in the age of e-mail and Facebook? People in my country have zero problem organising political events on Facebook, attracting several tens of thousands of visitors to their demonstrations.

Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by pjc50 on Friday December 14, 2018 @10:11AM (#18681287)
If you're organising a union on Facebook, and you're under American-style at-will employment, and it wasn't banned under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_concerted_activity , then the employer would simply immediately fire whichever people were seen to be the ringleaders.
Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by TomMarius on Friday December 14, 2018 @10:42AM (#18681564)
Good point. Thank you!
Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by dragonwriter on Friday December 14, 2018 @04:11PM (#18684811)
> Generally in order for unions to exist at all they need a certain amount of protection from reprisals;

This reverses cause and effect: in order for unions to receive any legal protection, they have to exist and fight for it (many members paying very high prices.) The unions precede the legal protection, not the other way around.

Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by baldfat on Friday December 14, 2018 @08:30AM (#18680632)
> And as soon as anyone mentions unions

Can we make it mandatory for everyone that is anti-Union to have to report to work on Labor Day and also they need to work the previous Saturday since it was normally a six day work week before Unions?

I still don't understand American working force's love affair with the filthy rich individuals and corporations. I am constantly told, "This is just how economy works" from my Father-In-law and other "conservatives."

When I mention that we as the working class are getting less and less of the GDP pie and more is going to the corporations and rich. The feeling is this has always been that way. I immediately say "I'm talking percentage" and sadly the average American is stuck at a 4th grade math level and I guess 4th grade doesn't cover the meaning of percentages.

The filthy rich's best warriors are conservative leaning voters right now and I have no idea how that will ever change.

Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by TheOtherHobbes on Friday December 14, 2018 @09:57AM (#18681204)
Don't forget that the filthy rich waged literal wars using hired thugs armed with guns against unions and their leaders around the turn of the century.

There's precious little mention of this in history lessons.

Re:Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell by baldfat on Friday December 14, 2018 @11:43AM (#18682151)
Local story for me on how bad the Labor Unions fight was with Police doing the bidding of the companies in 1910.

Bethlehem Steel had a strike, 9,000 workers complaining about the 12 hour work days and the unsafe work conditions. A policeman shot and killed union striker Joseph Szambo while he was drinking a beer and his wife gave birth to their child a few hours later. This caused Congress to get involved and to actually make Bethlehem Steel change their practices and the Labor Union won. http://bethlehem.thelehighvalleypress.com/2012/09/12/bethleh...

Now fast forward to the 1980s and Bethlehem Steel wasted millions in tax dollars on building a huge corporate office and didn't redo their old steel works and had to go out of business. People like to blame the Union but it was Corporate waste of resources that was the demise of the company. https://www.mcall.com/opinion/white/mc-bw-bethlehem-steel-pl...