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Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by munk-a on Monday December 10, 2018 @05:42PM (#18651764)
I hope so, companies have agendas that are not aligned with those of their employees. Collective bargaining is practically a profanity in the US and it'd be good to see that silly prejudice eroded.
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by humanrebar on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:02PM (#18651898)
> ...it'd be good to see that silly prejudice eroded.

This is too dismissive. The fact is that unions are politically engaged. Being concerned about lobbying and political advocacy isn't silly.

If you were an employee for/against software patents, how would you feel if the union actively campaigned and donated in the opposite direction? Even worse, what if the union tended to support candidates on the opposite side of issues you cared more about, like public schools, gay rights, or abortion?

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by tptacek on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:26PM (#18652054)
It's so unlikely that a programmers "union" would lobby in favor of software patents that you almost might as well worry that they'd lobby for lower wages, or an abolition of remote working. They could do all of those things, but looser IPR rules more favorable to rank-and-file developers seems like such a basic, shared concern that it's likely to be a plank of any organized labor in software development.

Meanwhile, as pointed out by sibling comments: most large tech employers already overtly and vigorously "lobby" in the opposite direction.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by humanrebar on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:32PM (#18652090)
I was saying some employees might own software patents and be in favor of them. I don't agree, but I also don't expect them to be happy about dues going to fight software patents.
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by mbrameld on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:06PM (#18652537)
It seems like you might be saying that if a union can't satisfy every member of the profession it represents then it shouldn't exist. I don't agree. I feel like if you run a union that represents a profession of which the overwhelming majority of employees feel one way about an issue, then you lobby on that side of the issue. There will always be a minority that disagrees. That minority must then decide whether their views on that particular issue are strong enough to outweigh all the other benefits of the union.
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by humanrebar on Monday December 10, 2018 @10:32PM (#18653164)
Or maybe they already did the calculation and have already decided it's not worth it. You can't say people will make up their minds and then insist that they have it all wrong.

Besides, all the replies here are ignoring one of the major points... that lobbying as a when can be detrimental. Software patent policy isn't on the ballot and is maybe the 30th most important issue for voters, so it isn't all that relevant when picking a candidate to support. Gun issues, immigration, abortion, health care, and other issues are way more important to most. Donating based on right to repair ignoring the other issues is very atypical.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by tptacek on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:35PM (#18652107)
Fixing IPR conditions for employees doesn't have to involve abolition of software patents; a much more workable plank for a software union might be an end to restrictive IPR clauses in contracts that require developers to assign and later (even after leaving) defend patents based on their work. You could own and benefit from a software patent and still be very much in favor of having the option to participate in your employers patent plans.
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by pvg on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:13PM (#18652293)
Isn't your counter-example about as unrealistic as the notion that such a union would want to promote software patents? As in, that's a zany example but the (more-or-less) inverse seems about as zany.
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by tptacek on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:46PM (#18652454)
I'm not sure I follow (but then I didn't write carefully either). Are you saying it sounds zany that a software developers union would lobby employers to end restrictive IPR clauses in employee contracts? Because that would be pretty high up on my list of demands (those same IPR clauses make it tricky for employee developers to go off and start their own companies).
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by pvg on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:21PM (#18652616)
Conveniently, I didn't read too carefully! This bit is probably what I should have been replying to, minus the zany:

looser IPR rules more favorable to rank-and-file developers seems like such a basic, shared concern that it's likely to be a plank of any organized labor in software development.

For SV specifically, I have a hard time seeing this as a major issue let alone an organizing one - mostly on the basis of personal impressions but also historically - there would be no SV at all if this was some serious impediment at a time when patents mattered a lot more than current software patents do. Why do you think it's such a big deal? It does pop up a lot on forums but lots of things do and more often than not, it's people being surprised and shocked (not entirely unreasonably) at the first AoI they get when they start working around here. But in practice, these (among halfway decent actors) are almost never used in a coercive or draconian fashion.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by deogeo on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:18PM (#18651981)
> If you were an employee for/against software patents, how would you feel if the union actively campaigned and donated in the opposite direction?

And if your employer lobbied in the opposite direction? For example pro software patents, pro anti-circumvention laws, anti labor protections? Is it better if the only lobbying is from corporate?

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by humanrebar on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:24PM (#18652027)
Yes, we have this problem. Why would it be better by adding other lobbyists into the mix?
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by manfredo on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:25PM (#18652046)
Then you could change your employer. Outside of right-to-work states, you may have to change your entire field of employment in order to work in a non-unionized job.
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by door5 on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:37PM (#18652114)
what if no employers in your field share your values?
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by manfredo on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:48PM (#18652175)
Sure that possiblity exists. But that scenario is a strict subset of the scenarios in which unionization would force people to support views to which they are opposed. If there is exactly one employer in your area you're hosed union or not.
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by munk-a on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:06PM (#18652263)
I disagree, in many cases people disagree with the opinions of organizations they join. Introducing sane gun regulations have polled above 66% but the representatives we have in washington won't touch that with a ten foot pole. Similarly a lot of labourers may share opinions that managers may disagree with, with how lobbying works the opinions of management and above are codified in lobbying efforts, unionization would allow the majority opinion to be expressed.
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by manfredo on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:11PM (#18652286)
True it allows the majority union opinion to be expressed. But it doesn't change the fact the workers are still enabling the company to spread it's message by virtue of working there. They can avoid the latter by working for a different company.

Furthermore, there isn't anything that's preventing those employees from voicing their opinions without a union. The story linked in the OP is exactly that. Unless tech companies are firing thier employers for their political views, employees can make their views known regardless of union status. While we have seen a few instances of that, most were views that I doubt the average pro software developer union person wants to see defended (then again a lot of people proposing unionizing developers want to limit H1Bs so you never know).

Contrast this with people who are against what the union is doing. The only way to avoid this is to leave the union. In some states (including California) this may mean leaving the entire field of work. Right to work states guarantee the ability to work without union membership, but many (most?) tech jobs are not in those States.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by munk-a on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:22PM (#18652345)
I make enough that I have consciously chosen to work for a company that I endorse the values of. But this is the second job I have had after immigrating to Canada, the first one paid well and I needed work.

Being able to quit a job over a moral objection is a painted as a luxury to most employees (whether it actually is a luxury or not... I think is less relevant than all the media we're fed reinforcing the fact that having a job is a privilege we're lucky to be allowed)

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by manfredo on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:34PM (#18652401)
I don't disagree that quitting one's job over political disagreement is a luxury for many, if not most people. But however hard it is to quit one's job, it is even harder to quit one's entire field - which is what is needed to avoid union membership is non right to work States.

Thus to depict union membership as protecting workers' ability to avoid taking part in the endorsement of views is nonsensical. It is strictly harder to quit a union than to quit one's job. Because the latter not only involves quitting one's job, but also finding new employment in a different field.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by cyphar on Monday December 10, 2018 @09:39PM (#18652958)
> It is strictly harder to quit a union than to quit one's job. Because the latter not only involves quitting one's job, but also finding new employment in a different field.

(Did you mean "former"?)

I think you're being more than a little hyperbolic. Unions can't force employers to not hire you if you're not a member (in fact most employers probably would prefer non-union employees because the employees have less negotiating strength).

Not to mention that historically unions have been the catalyst for workers rights legislation (like the 5-day work week, and 9-5 hours, overtime pay, and so on). So even if you aren't a member there are obvious benefits to employees who aren't members of a union (in the long run).

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by manfredo on Monday December 10, 2018 @11:12PM (#18653282)
> Unions can't force employers to not hire you if you're not a member

This is not the case. At least, it is allowed in States that have not passed legislation to that effect. Many (usually liberal) States have not done so, as it would weaken the power of unions.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by int_19h on Monday December 10, 2018 @11:34PM (#18653328)
> Introducing sane gun regulations have polled above 66% but the representatives we have in washington won't touch that with a ten foot pole.

And do you know why it is so? The popular adage is "gun lobby throws money at representatives", but it's actually not true.

The reason why gun control doesn't get traction despite popular support is because those polls that measure support or opposition don't measure the dedication of people expressing it. The majority, when asked about gun control, support it, yes - but most don't feel particularly strong about it, and extremely few consider it a make-or-break single issue. So when it comes to voting, politicians know that they can get those people's votes even if they don't go for gun control, riding on other issues.

OTOH, NRA (and other gun rights orgs) have a very effective resource, and that isn't money - it's membership. Specifically, it's the subset of its members that is laser focused on gun legislation, and the majority of whom consider it their single most important issue. Because of that, they're likely to turn out in the primaries, and vote based solely on that one thing, ignoring everything else. Furthermore, NRA (or rather NRA-PVF specifically) facilitates it by compiling dossiers on various candidates in all races across the country, and publishing them together with voting guides. So what this all means is that any Republican who openly supports gun control will find it hard to get through the primary. And, conversely, not supporting it is not a big downside in the general (D voters will vote against you anyway, and R voters will vote for you anyway).

This is changing lately with the rise of left-wing, ideologically motivated groups that target primaries in a similar way, like Indivisibles, which means that Dems these days are a bit more likely to pick it up. But it's still a litmus test for Republicans, and for as long as that remains the case, you're not going to see 70% popular support translate to 70% legislature votes.

By the way, we had a very good demonstration of this recently. Remember the whole bump stock kerfuffle? When ATF announced that it's reviewing its categorization of them, there was a public comment period. Here's how it went:

"Of the more than 17,000 public comments received so far by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), a review by Reuters of 4,200 turned up only 10 favoring the bump stock ban. Almost all the rest criticized the proposal as heavy-handed, unnecessary or unconstitutional."

Funnier still, most comments expressing support for the ban were form letters, while most comments expressing opposition were not. This despite the fact that over 80% of the population support the ban, according to the polls - just not enough to bother leaving a public comment on the Internet expressing that opinion, much less prioritize it in their voting choices.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by door5 on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:40PM (#18652428)
I have very left wing politics, socially and economically. A union is by nature far more likely to represent my views than any corporation. If your politics are "rich people should be able to do whatever they want, collaborate with whatever despicable organizations they like, treat employees however they like and have little oversight over their business", that is a justifiable reason to oppose unionization. I don't share those views, but that's the status quo, and it is almost completely inescapable in this industry.
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by manfredo on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:01PM (#18652520)
I think you're thinking a bit too coarse grained. Do you believe that teachers should get performance based pay? Plenty of liberal teachers think so, but they have no choice but to fund an organization that lobbies for the contrary.

Same deal with unions in tech. Say you're in favor of immigration for high skilled workers. Most unions are against immigration when it has the potential to increase the supply of labor in their field (because increased supply = lower costs of labor).

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by kiliantics on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:19PM (#18652606)
Performance-based pay just leads to gamification of the performance metric, not better teaching/education. Teachers should get paid a living wage, and that's what their unions should be working for.

There are certainly unions with bad politics. The ideal is a union that is embedded as part of a broader pro-worker movement that supports migrants, women, other minorities, the unemployed, etc.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by cyphar on Monday December 10, 2018 @09:49PM (#18653009)
I have yet to meet a teacher who is in favour of performance-driven pay, and I have a feeling that even in America (where "left-wing" is actually center-right by most metrics) many liberal teachers aren't in favour of such proposals.

In Australia, high schools are ranked based on final exam scores and that's something teachers already hate. But to tie it to pay would lead to an even larger conflict of interest and attempts to cheat the performance indicators. When I was graduating high school, I noticed that all of our raw marks were reduced right before our final exams (they were reduced because the metric takes into account whether the school was "harder" on students than the national exam or "easier" on them, and rewarded "harder" schools).

If this was just done to change a ranking, imagine what would happen if teacher's pay was linked to performance. Hell, what about rural or "bad neighbourhood" areas? Should we always and forever doom them to have bad teachers because all the good ones go somewhere with better pay? This is already happening (because working for a higher-ranked school is better for your career) and is pretty bad -- having performance-based pay would be a disaster.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by door5 on Monday December 10, 2018 @08:06PM (#18652542)
I always thought performance based pay was a very right wing proposal, supported by right wing organisations.

I think that's a good point -- unions are not perfect and may support the interests of their members over the interests of other workers or society at large. However, in my view they are far preferable to any corporate board of directors, which represents only the interests of the owners of the company. Politics is struggle, it isn't just opting out of things you don't like, or else you'll end up a hermit. it's organizing for representation and power, and unions are one example of that kind of organization. An imperfect one, yes, but far preferable in my view to none at all

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by 49531 on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:15PM (#18651965)
This is such a backwards way of thinking about collective bargaining.

The corporations you work for the the exact same thing (lobby for things they want) and it's rarely for your own benefit. The difference between a union and a corporation is that unions are democratic organizations. Good luck voting your boss out of their job. All you can do now is quit and find a new job, which for a lot of workers isn't easy to do.

This is the argument used in the recent Janus ruling of the SCOTUS. It's part of the last 40 years of anti-union propaganda shoved into our faces by corporations.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by JoshTriplett on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:49PM (#18652177)
> The difference between a union and a corporation is that unions are democratic organizations.

I already have quite enough entities "democratically" deciding how to represent me or spend my money in ways I oppose, and I don't want another. Do not presume to speak for me or count me among a number of "supporters" of any cause without my explicit consent. The right way to handle any kind of lobbying is "we're thinking of supporting this cause, here's an easy link if you'd like to support that cause, and we'll only speak for those who agree"; that would still allow a union to facilitate collective action without presuming to speak for everyone.

There's a huge difference between (for instance) "let's collectively demand better working conditions, better benefits, and equitable treatment" and "let's lobby the government to make it illegal to work on software without being a union member". I don't care if 53% of a union favors the latter or not. Unions can and do engage in regulatory capture.

Like any concentration of power, unions can be used for good or for ill. Propaganda would have you believe they're always bad, and pro-union folks would have you believe they're always good.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by humanrebar on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:30PM (#18652081)
There is an implicit false choice here. I don't have to pick between one lobbying group or another. I can reject both, at least in principle.

Both can be true:

- A union lobbies better for me than my employer.

- No lobbying represents my views better than either employer or union lobbying.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by masonic on Monday December 10, 2018 @11:19PM (#18653294)

  A union lobbies better for me than my employer.
No, a union typically lobbies for the interests of the union leaders.

Those interests may or may not coincide with yours.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by deogeo on Monday December 10, 2018 @06:52PM (#18652194)
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Because you may not perfectly agree with union lobbying, it's better to leave corporate lobbying unopposed, which will almost certainly leave you (and the entire working class) worse off?

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by munk-a on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:02PM (#18652240)
I am so confused by this comment, the parent mentioned that they'd prefer if unions had a voice in lobbying over just having corporations lobbying but then mentioned that having no lobbying would be ideal. This seems like mentioning the perfect and then saying "And this other thing works too."
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by deogeo on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:15PM (#18652306)
Expecting corporations to stop lobbying is laughably unrealistic, so "no lobbying" isn't available.
Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by munk-a on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:19PM (#18652324)
It is. The US spends enough money on elections that it really wouldn't be crazy to just switch over to public funding of elections and take money out of the equation entirely.

But I do agree that there is no way companies would chose to refrain from lobbying if the option was available.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by nostrademons on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:30PM (#18652381)
There's also my favorite subtle fix to U.S. democracy - require all members of Congress to reside full-time in their districts and conduct all government business electronically. Now instead of hiring 1 lobbyist who can wine & dine 535 members of Congress and build personal relationships with every one, you have to hire 535 lobbyists who can each wine & dine 1 member of Congress and have to compete with their actual constituents & neighbors for social attention.

This also has a number of other benefits to democracy, notably that social science has shown that our allegiance is to those who we are in closest proximity daily with (i.e. representatives might actually represent their constituents instead of the political class) and it disincentivizes gerrymandering (if you're gonna shove all the black people in one district, you're gonna be living with them).

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by munk-a on Monday December 10, 2018 @07:35PM (#18652405)
I hadn't seen this proposal before but that actually makes a lot of sense and would probably help out quite a bit.

There are concerns with logistics and security when it comes to electronically submitted votes for elections (i.e. e-voting) but this sort of a solution side steps any concerns like that, heck it could be voting by show of hands over a video chat.

I do disagree with the gerrymandering portion though, I think the US really needs to adopt a proportional representation system (I'm partial to MMP) which would just make any attempt at gerrymandering irrelevant, sure you can win a particular seat if you gerrymander, but the amount you can effect overall representation would be quite minimal.

Re:Google Employees Demand the End of Forced Arbitration Acr... by lbeltrame on Monday December 10, 2018 @05:53PM (#18651842)
> Collective bargaining is practically a profanity in the US

While this is not true for all Europe, excessive "collective" (quotes intended) bargaining in my country has ensured indeed a sort of equality... an equality where everyone is put at the bottom with regards to wages. That's because everything is decided at national level (there are contracts for workers, teachers, engineers...) with close to zero local flexibility. New professions are kind of shoehorned into previous contract types (heck, I'm a researcher, and my contract applies to the "retail industry").

Major national unions (which have mostly retirees in their ranks) prefer it like this because they can have political power. That's why they are vehemently opposing any kind of local negotiation between employees and local unions, because that would strip them off their power.

tl;dr: Implementations differ, some might even yield worse results than before.