News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by Luc on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @11:41AM (#1865155)
There seems to be a misunderstanding in this article that Lord James is a member of the government.

As far as I can tell from his Wikipedia page he is a member of one of the houses of parliament, but has never been a member of government.

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by ErrantX on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:07PM (#1865245)
He is a member of the House of Lords. This is our unelected upper house. Their actual role in legislative government is somewhat complex (though they do have a role, some of which is not exercised by convention, some of which lacks power).

But you are right; from a practical "man on the street" perspective he is not a member of "the government".

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by nihilocrat on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:26PM (#1865323)
I'm an American living in Canada and the political focus seems to always be on the government (PM and cabinet) and the House of Commons. I never really hear mention of the Senate (basically the House of Lords of Canada), and being unelected, I assume it's not really taken too seriously. In the US, the converse is true, where the Senate is more powerful than the House and Senators are considered to be more important in pretty much every way.

In such an environment where people have little power but have the air and outward appearance of having a lot, I would suspect bizarre speeches aren't uncommon.

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by jat850 on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:33PM (#1865353)
In Canada, it is exceedingly uncommon to hear bizarre speeches - or anything whatsoever, for that matter - from the Senate.

You are 100% right in that it is not taken exceptionally seriously, as they are lifetime appointments and most often bestowed as an honour. There is an element of power, as at least from a technical standpoint, the Senate in Canada could block the passage of legislation. It is a "rubber stamp" element of government, yes, but only out of tradition. If for some spectacularly weird reason the Senate decided to wield their power, it would have just as much weight - from a technical standpoint - as the US Senate.

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by icegreentea on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @01:06PM (#1865490)
It's not totally a rubber stamp. There have been a few outright rejections in the previous decade. In addition, they often force bills that have been passed in the house of commons to be reviewed/changed before it evens comes to the Senate. Over the course of the review, the law almost always get changed into something the Senate agrees with and so it gets passed.

But you are correct in the broad sense typically, once a bill passes the house of commons, it will become a law.

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by sanderjd on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @01:13PM (#1865515)
Apologies for lack displaying my lack of knowledge regarding Canadian politics, but what why would it be "spectacularly weird" for the Senate to wield their power, when groups with power nearly always wield it? What holds them back from doing so? As an American, it is very odd to hear that a body exists with power technically equivalent to our (very powerful) Senate, but with lifetime appointments, and yet they do nothing, and are not taken seriously.
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by a-priori on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @02:20PM (#1865816)
In addition to what jat850 said, there's also the fear of jeopardizing their positions. Right now the senators receive a significant salary ($132,300/a) for not much work. The Senate has notoriously low attendance.

If they do something to piss off the Canadian public, the Prime Minister could use that as an opportunity to push through legislation to change or even abolish the Senate. Harper, our current Prime Minister, talked about Senate reform in his election campaign, and he's not the first to do so, but it's never been urgent enough to actually do anything about.

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by jat850 on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @01:29PM (#1865599)
First, I erred on one point. Lifetime appointment is almost, but not quite true. Senators must retire at age 75.

A big portion of it is the demographic of the Senate. As senate seats are typically honourary appointments, rather than partisan decisions (though there are exceptions), there is typically little reason or desire to rise up and exert their power. Senators include former career politicians, but also public personas of various origin - athletes, entertainers, and others of non-political origin.

I would speculate that is almost out of a "gentleman's agreement" of sorts that senators respect and recognize their role and place in Canadian politics. Another is attendance - only 15 senators out of 105 are required to make quorum, and many senators are almost never found in their seats.

I shouldn't make it seem as though the Canadian senate is merely an automatic stamp of approval; there have been past examples of dissent, discussion, debate, reform, and rejection of bills arriving in the Senate. However, it is generally understood among the public that the Senate acts primarily in a nearly ceremonial capacity, rather than one of actual weight and importance.

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by nkassis on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:45PM (#1865399)
They do actually sometime use this for very controversial laws. I can't remember that last time it happened but it does happen occasionally hence why every party in power tries to stuff as many of their own in there. It provides longevity to the parties in power.
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by stuaxo on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:31PM (#1865343)
They do actually have real power in the UK and shape the laws, including sometimes putting a break on some that might be a bit harsh.
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by muddylemon on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @05:01PM (#1866505)
> In the US, the converse is true, where the Senate is more powerful than the House and Senators are considered to be more important in pretty much every way.

especially by themselves

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by ryanc on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:01PM (#1865218)
By this logic you wouldn't call a US Senator a member of the US Government?
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by nihilocrat on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:19PM (#1865300)
The usage of the term "government" in commonwealth countries, following the Westminster System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_system), refers more specifically to the executive branch (prime minister and cabinet) currently in power and not the state in general. Since the Prime Minister and his/her cabinet are merely MPs in high positions, the division between executive and legistlative in terms of personnel is not nearly as clear-cut as it is in US politics.
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @01:40PM (#1865641)
>The usage of the term "government" in commonwealth countries, following the Westminster System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_system), refers more specifically to the executive branch (prime minister and cabinet) currently in power and not the state in general.

That's very interesting, I don't think Scottish, English or Welsh people use "government" it that way though FWIW. What word does one use for the government if the word government is co-opted for the Cabinet & PM?

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by handelaar on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @01:53PM (#1865704)
>I don't think Scottish, English or Welsh people use "government" it that way though

Well, you'd be wrong. That's exactly how we use it when we're talking about people. I won't pretend you don't hear the same word used to refer to 'the State' (which is the term we use for the overall apparatus of the State) colloquially, but you can always distinguish from context.

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @04:10PM (#1866290)
I know it's a single data point but I've lived for several years in each region and worked in government (note I've never been part of the cabinet nor PM, sorry for my apparently uncommon usage).

I'm not arguing that the more intellectual echelons such as political scientists don't use it in the described manner however; don't move in those circles.

I never hear people refer to our country [the UK] as "the state" either. I perceive state as including the people (but ours is a [pseudo] democratic state so I'm coloured by that.

It's strange that I've not heard this usage, isn't it?

I just jumped to the first newspaper I thought of (well the 2nd, but paywall ...) and the first story in the UK Politics section that mentioned government (Ctrl+f search on the UK Pol' page).

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-...

"The Government's immigration cap should not affect inter-company transfers for global firms, David Cameron said today. "

Well it's not the "cabinet and prime ministers immigration cap". The immigration cap is that [on some level] agreed in parliament, passed by the Lords and implemented by the relevant civil servants. I'm still not seeing it.

Whereabouts in the UK are you all (upvoters) from, what occupations are you in?

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by frobozz on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @05:34PM (#1866626)
By "worked in government" do you mean "worked in a department of the civil service eventually reporting to a cabinet minister"?
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @06:51PM (#1866861)
Yes, does this also mean that I should call a driver a "car"?
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by nl on Thursday November 04, 2010 @07:14PM (#1871246)
"The Government's immigration cap should not affect inter-company transfers for global firms, David Cameron said today."

That's a really good example. He's defending a policy of the current PM and Cabinet. Of course this has been passed by the parliament - that's how the Westminster system works. If parliament stops passing the policies of the cabinet then the government falls.

"The Government" refers to the Prime Minster and his/her Cabinet. It is supported by other parliamentary members of the ruling parties.

Colloquial usage of the phrase "the government" to refer to the civil service, and to ministries etc (eg, "I work in government" or "you'll need government approval to build that there") is common. As soon as politics is involved, though "The Government" refers to those who actually hold power.

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by pbhjpbhj on Thursday November 04, 2010 @06:55AM (#1868366)
I see a couple more upvotes, would be really interested in my last question, thanks.
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by gloob on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:12PM (#1865268)
The parliamentary system is rather different from the US political system. Notably, there is "the government" and "the opposition", which are usually (but not necessarily) the two largest parties in the parliament.

(Disclaimer: I'm Canadian. This is how it works in Canada. There are differences between the Canadian and British systems, but they are much smaller than the differences between the American and British systems).

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by frobozz on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:18PM (#1865294)
I have no idea how the terminology is applied in the US, but in the UK, it does not include every Tom, Dick or Harry that manages to get themselves a seat in Parliament.
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by dailyrorschach on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @01:54PM (#1865709)
In the US we would. The equivalent term would be Administration.
Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by rlmw on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:36PM (#1865361)
I can somewhat see your point, but the house of lords is primarily aimed at redrafting/refining legislation, and can be overruled under the Parliament Acts[0]. So it is possible to pass legislation without the permission of the House of Lords, but it isn't possible to pass legislation without it passing through the Senate afaik. Obviously legislation thats passed the senate can still be vetoed or stopped by the House, but thats a different thing.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_Acts_1911_and_1949

Re:Did somebody just try to buy the British government? by ryanc on Wednesday November 03, 2010 @12:43PM (#1865386)
I think despite all the differences between systems I would still call someone who is a member of the legislative body a member of the government in general terms.