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Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by decentralised on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:53AM (#18641391)
>t's been established over and over again that cryptocurrencies are not money.

Sorry but that's not true. You may be confusing "money" with "currency" though.

There's at least one US state that allows paying taxes in cryptocurrencies and there are a few countries here in Europe where cryptos are legal tender.

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by robin_reala on Sunday December 09, 2018 @10:58AM (#18641420)
[citation needed]
Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by cromulent on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:14AM (#18641528)
Do you have any references to support the claim that bitcoin is legal tender?

Legal tender must be accepted to extinguish a debt, by any party.

Just because bitcoin is not illegal doesn't make it legal tender. It may be used if all parties agree.

I understand the first link you gave says that Germany accepts Bitcoin as legal tender, but that is from a misunderstanding of what legal tender is. German vendors are within their rights to refuse it and insist upon real legal tender.

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by tialaramex on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:53AM (#18641791)
You're just going to run into loads of people who don't understand what "legal tender" is and, when you explain it, will insist that you must be wrong because they've heard that phrase and attached a different meaning (generally: a vaguely positive aura plus "it's money")

For those reading along, a useful baseline to get you straight on legal tender is in countries where fiat currencies are just broadly assumed to be valuable any legal tender laws are basically just ornamentation. Scotland, for example, doesn't have any bank notes as legal tender, just some old coins. Nobody in Scotland doubts that the notes they have are valuable, but its laws don't bother explicitly privileging this as "legal tender". Nevertheless if you get on a bus in Edinburgh with a goose and some shiny rocks and try to barter, well, you'll be lucky if the other passengers let you back off in one piece, let alone to get an actual ride. "Exact cash fare only".

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by decentralised on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:17AM (#18641550)
>Do you have any references to support the claim that bitcoin is legal tender?

Yes I have linked to it.

edit: In German: https://www.scribd.com/document/372651554/2018-02-27-Umsatzs...

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by cromulent on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:36AM (#18641687)
No, you've linked to something that says it is OK to use it. You are misunderstanding what legal tender is.

The European Commission says [1]:

"Within the euro area, only the euro has the status of legal tender."

"Yet...contractual parties are free to use...virtual currency schemes (e.g. Bitcoin). Although these are not official currencies and have no legal tender status, parties can agree to use them".

Germany has not made Bitcoin legal tender. Don't fool yourself.

[1] https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/eu...

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by decentralised on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:56AM (#18641817)
Within the Euro area only the Euro has the status of legal tender but businesses settle in USD all the time.

The link I provided is jurisprudence in Germany but it doesn't impact the whole of the EU. Malta might soon join though.

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by cromulent on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:15PM (#18641948)
If you want HN and other people to take Bitcoin seriously, it's in your interests not to make false or inaccurate claims.

If there are "a few countries here in Europe where cryptos are legal tender" then this is a big deal and you need to provide a reference.

Otherwise you just come across badly. Terms are important.

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by detaro on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:00PM (#18641838)
The German source you provided explicitly states that it is not legal tender, but "just" treated similarly as other currencies: buying bitcoin is recognized as exchanging other currencies, it can be used similarly in contracts, ...
Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by decentralised on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:06PM (#18641873)
Can you tell me where? I must have honestly missed it and so must have all the other people who think this https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/19/bitcoin-u... is true.
Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by detaro on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:08PM (#18641887)
The Guardian article doesn't say it is legal tender either. Legal tender has a very specific meaning.

The German source says that for some purposes it is "treated equally to legal tender" and that "exchanging virtual currencies to legal tender and back is tax free". Neither statement makes sense if it were legal tender.

Its status for some purposes is similar to that of other non-Euro currencies (e.g. contracts between private parties agreeing on it etc), none of which are legal tender in Germany.

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by decentralised on Sunday December 09, 2018 @01:13PM (#18642285)
Ok that difference makes sense, thank you for the explanation.

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are treated equally to legal tender in Germany.

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by JumpCrisscross on Sunday December 09, 2018 @03:23PM (#18643053)
> Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are treated equally to legal tender in Germany

I’m sceptical that you spent 20 years in fintech without learning the definition of legal tender.

If you go to a restaurant, eat your meal (thereby accumulating a debt) and slap legal tender on the table, the restaurant must accept it. They may also accept other things, like Visa credit cards or Ethereum. But they aren’t obligated to. The former is legal tender. The latter is a way to pay. Obligations around settling debt are the sole defining characteristic of legal tender, so it doesn’t make any sense to say one thing is “treated equally” to legal tender if it lacks this core characteristic.

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by decentralised on Sunday December 09, 2018 @06:25PM (#18643981)
I'm familiar with the definition but I learned today that I was mistaken in the translation. The articles I had previously read and linked said bitcoin was legal tender but the actual legal document provides a slightly but importantly different definition.

If you travel abroad you may have to exchange your currency to pay for a meal, because your coin is not treated equality to legal tender locally, and the defining characteristic is that it settles the debt at the time of exchange. I believe that's a function that cryptocurrencies fulfil by design and if the court states they are to be treated equally to legal tender that seems to prove my point.

Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by sorokod on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:28PM (#18642026)
In UK, Scotland is issuing it's own fiat money that is not a legal tender. See here https://www.scotbanks.org.uk/banknotes/legal-position.html
Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by mkesper on Sunday December 09, 2018 @12:01PM (#18641843)
The german article just regulates sales / value added tax IF you do business in bitcoin. It nowhere states that bitcoin et. al MUST be accepted as a means of payment.
Re:Crypto Market Crash Leaving Bankrupt Startups in Its Wake by robin_reala on Sunday December 09, 2018 @11:02AM (#18641451)
Thanks!